Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 66

Another important point, is this. I feel that everyone who is making campaigns for TBP, MUST USE THE DEFAULT TABLES.

Reasons:
1a. It will be difficult for people to make the necessary adjustments, and install the correct components on the correct files.
1b.People when switching campaigns, will have to fight the battles in the one with the table of the other, worsening the game experience.
2. It is IMPORTANT to know how a ship should behave in all TBP campaigns. It is an "experience" that is enhanced by playing and more playing. If all those making campaigns differ from that then that experience will be worsened, with fans cheering "Nials are too hard on your campaign", and what have you.
3. If adjustments need to be made they must be authorised and sanctioned (playtested and agreed upon) by the TBP team. They brought TBP to us, they should be masters of its fate. This here forum is for us to express our views, but the decisions must lie with them.
4. It just makes sense to play with the same rules on all different campaigns.
5. It should be clear from the get go what kind of rules (or alterations people are playing with). Imagine 4 imaginary future campaigns. 2 with TBP tables, and 2 with creator-edited ones. I would only download the TBP ones, just to know what I am dealing with.
6. It will be extra difficult for the "chosen ones", namely BOBBEAU who tries to enhance this game for all of us to make some changes, if everyone has different tables. Plus then new .exes (3+) from what I have seen crash when different tables are present.

If all that sounds mucky and people's creativity is being oppressed, I propose a "TBP talbes" logo for those who agree and a "No TBP tables" for those who don't.

__________________
Freespace, or now Freed space the best Sci-Fi Fighter simulator out there combined with the best Sci-Fi Universe WOW ( I think fanboy alarm went offscale)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 66

Another important point, is this. I feel that everyone who is making campaigns for TBP, MUST USE THE DEFAULT TABLES.

Reasons:
1a. It will be difficult for people to make the necessary adjustments, and install the correct components on the correct files.
1b.People when switching campaigns, will have to fight the battles in the one with the table of the other, worsening the game experience.
2. It is IMPORTANT to know how a ship should behave in all TBP campaigns. It is an "experience" that is enhanced by playing and more playing. If all those making campaigns differ from that then that experience will be worsened, with fans cheering "Nials are too hard on your campaign", and what have you.
3. If adjustments need to be made they must be authorised and sanctioned (playtested and agreed upon) by the TBP team. They brought TBP to us, they should be masters of its fate. This here forum is for us to express our views, but the decisions must lie with them.
4. It just makes sense to play with the same rules on all different campaigns.
5. It should be clear from the get go what kind of rules (or alterations people are playing with). Imagine 4 imaginary future campaigns. 2 with TBP tables, and 2 with creator-edited ones. I would only download the TBP ones, just to know what I am dealing with.
6. It will be extra difficult for the "chosen ones", namely BOBBEAU who tries to enhance this game for all of us to make some changes, if everyone has different tables. Plus then new .exes (3+) from what I have seen crash when different tables are present.

If all that sounds mucky and people's creativity is being oppressed, I propose a "TBP talbes" logo for those who agree and a "No TBP tables" for those who don't.

__________________
Freespace, or now Freed space the best Sci-Fi Fighter simulator out there combined with the best Sci-Fi Universe WOW ( I think fanboy alarm went offscale)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: The Cold Northland!
Posts: 8392

Fixed spelling...tables, not talbes. Took me a while to figure it out so I fixed it for all our sake

I like the idea overall. I can see making custom tables still happening because we won't have everything that people want...but if you do want something useful in terms of a table addition...do contact us and we'll try and incorporate it.

NOTE: Tables will change over TBP's development due to continual tweaking. You will not see the major shifts seen so far...the changes from now on will have more to do with Source Code updates than anything else.

__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 1901

Fixed spelling...tables, not talbes. Took me a while to figure it out so I fixed it for all our sake

I like the idea overall. I can see making custom tables still happening because we won't have everything that people want...but if you do want something useful in terms of a table addition...do contact us and we'll try and incorporate it.

NOTE: Tables will change over TBP's development due to continual tweaking. You will not see the major shifts seen so far...the changes from now on will have more to do with Source Code updates than anything else.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Posts: 169

How about a .bat file similar to what was incorporated into Derelict that allowed you to switch between the derelict tables and the default tables. Can something similar be done so you can switch between the default tbp tables and the custom tables you decide to use? I also thought something we being incorporated into the SCP that allowed you to switch between mods? Yeah Kercanos makes a good point but that is going overboard. As I see it you adjust the tables at your own risk you screw something up or something doesn't work that is your fault. You can EASILY make backups of the tables and if you choose not to take the 5 seconds it takes to do that it is your fault. The default ones are easily available to anyone.

__________________
Sheridan's rule #29
"Always make your enemy think you know more than you actually know."
Ranger1_ams@hotmail.com
aim: jasondan
icq: 95982844

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Posts: 169

How about a .bat file similar to what was incorporated into Derelict that allowed you to switch between the derelict tables and the default tables. Can something similar be done so you can switch between the default tbp tables and the custom tables you decide to use? I also thought something we being incorporated into the SCP that allowed you to switch between mods? Yeah Kercanos makes a good point but that is going overboard. As I see it you adjust the tables at your own risk you screw something up or something doesn't work that is your fault. You can EASILY make backups of the tables and if you choose not to take the 5 seconds it takes to do that it is your fault. The default ones are easily available to anyone.

__________________
Sheridan's rule #29
"Always make your enemy think you know more than you actually know."
Ranger1_ams@hotmail.com
aim: jasondan
icq: 95982844

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
Posts: 1234

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ranger1
I also thought something we being incorporated into the SCP that allowed you to switch between mods?

---

IIRC It works by allowing you to choose the name of your data drawer. The only way to get it to work with the current version of TBP would be to re-install it for every single modded table. That's a pretty big waste of HD space.

Of course if TBP is released as a .vp file that FS2_open would solve the problem quite nicely

__________________
Questions about FS3? Questions about Fred? Questions about missions? Questions about adding new ships to your games?

[URL=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/intro.html]Karajorma's Freespace FAQ [/URL] (now with added GE goodness)

Supreme Overlord of The Mercury Affair Campaign.

FREDder, Modder, Story design and general busybody for [URL=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Background.html] Mind Games[/URL]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
Posts: 1234

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ranger1
I also thought something we being incorporated into the SCP that allowed you to switch between mods?

---

IIRC It works by allowing you to choose the name of your data drawer. The only way to get it to work with the current version of TBP would be to re-install it for every single modded table. That's a pretty big waste of HD space.

Of course if TBP is released as a .vp file that FS2_open would solve the problem quite nicely

__________________
Questions about FS3? Questions about Fred? Questions about missions? Questions about adding new ships to your games?

[URL=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/intro.html]Karajorma's Freespace FAQ [/URL] (now with added GE goodness)

Supreme Overlord of The Mercury Affair Campaign.

FREDder, Modder, Story design and general busybody for [URL=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Background.html] Mind Games[/URL]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 190

quote:

---

Originally posted by karajorma
Of course if TBP is released as a .vp file that FS2_open would solve the problem quite nicely

---

Isn't there a tool for creating .vp files, or am I just assuming? (Even if there isn't, one should be easy to code, it's just a container that has the files bunched up without compression and an index at the end.)

Thus, make a .vp and use separate data dirs for the different versions of small files...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 190

quote:

---

Originally posted by karajorma
Of course if TBP is released as a .vp file that FS2_open would solve the problem quite nicely

---

Isn't there a tool for creating .vp files, or am I just assuming? (Even if there isn't, one should be easy to code, it's just a container that has the files bunched up without compression and an index at the end.)

Thus, make a .vp and use separate data dirs for the different versions of small files...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 2275

there is - in Kazan's toolkit I believe.
look for alliance productions

__________________
Forgive my stupidity.
---
The Fish Institution
http://www.fishinstitution.com

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 2275

there is - in Kazan's toolkit I believe.
look for alliance productions

__________________
Forgive my stupidity.
---
The Fish Institution
http://www.fishinstitution.com

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Posts: 169

quote:

---

Originally posted by karajorma
That's a pretty big waste of HD space.

---

__________________
Sheridan's rule #29
"Always make your enemy think you know more than you actually know."
Ranger1_ams@hotmail.com
aim: jasondan
icq: 95982844

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Posts: 169

quote:

---

Originally posted by karajorma
That's a pretty big waste of HD space.

---

__________________
Sheridan's rule #29
"Always make your enemy think you know more than you actually know."
Ranger1_ams@hotmail.com
aim: jasondan
icq: 95982844

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Finland, beyond the Rim
Posts: 164

Despite of my limited disk space (only 10 GB ) I have multiple MODs for FS2 installed
Ranger1 suggested a .bat file to switch between the MOD .tbls and the original .tbls. I have already used that method for a long time, and it works just fine. I have all .bats in \tables folder, easily accesible via shortcuts on the desktop, and they really make life easier: just click "Switch to Originals" and then select the "Activate B5TBP" or the one you wish to play. So if we don't really want to use VP files, it might be reasonable to write those .bats and include them in the MOD pack.
Otherwise the .tbls belonging to some other mod may be overwritten at some point, and it's really annoying to rename all files separately. I use .tB5 file extension for TBP tbls when they're not active and .orig for the originals. The .bat only alters the file extension, nothing more.

All this to say .bats are a good thing...

__________________
<something you really cannot put here...>
-a Weird One

Just plain poison... Watch out for your nerves!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Finland, beyond the Rim
Posts: 164

Despite of my limited disk space (only 10 GB ) I have multiple MODs for FS2 installed
Ranger1 suggested a .bat file to switch between the MOD .tbls and the original .tbls. I have already used that method for a long time, and it works just fine. I have all .bats in \tables folder, easily accesible via shortcuts on the desktop, and they really make life easier: just click "Switch to Originals" and then select the "Activate B5TBP" or the one you wish to play. So if we don't really want to use VP files, it might be reasonable to write those .bats and include them in the MOD pack.
Otherwise the .tbls belonging to some other mod may be overwritten at some point, and it's really annoying to rename all files separately. I use .tB5 file extension for TBP tbls when they're not active and .orig for the originals. The .bat only alters the file extension, nothing more.

All this to say .bats are a good thing...

__________________
<something you really cannot put here...>
-a Weird One

Just plain poison... Watch out for your nerves!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Posts: 169

If you are worried about running of of hd space due to a 100something MB mod you may want to look into buying a new hd(they are cheap right now).

__________________
Sheridan's rule #29
"Always make your enemy think you know more than you actually know."
Ranger1_ams@hotmail.com
aim: jasondan
icq: 95982844

Last edited by Ranger1 on 03-04-2003 at 07:33 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, United States
Posts: 1016

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ranger1


hehe, I'm glad I have 100 gigs of hd space.

---

__________________
"Why climb it?" - "Because It's there."
-----------------
[URL=http://alliance.sourceforge.net]Alliance Productions[/URL]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, United States
Posts: 1016

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ranger1


hehe, I'm glad I have 100 gigs of hd space.

---

__________________
"Why climb it?" - "Because It's there."
-----------------
[URL=http://alliance.sourceforge.net]Alliance Productions[/URL]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Joutsa, Finland
Posts: 564

I have 6,5 gigs of hd space. Lets see if anyone can beat that...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged