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IceFire
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Ahh yes, the F-22....but its not everything. It looks at the moment to be a damn fine fighter. But what it ends up being is how well it performs over its lifespan.

From what I hear, up until recently, and barely even then...there isn't much that can outperform the current generation of F-15. Thats pretty impressive for a now 30 year old design.

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01-13-2002 02:14 AM

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Zeronet
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Roll on JSF.

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01-13-2002 02:30 AM

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Mr Carrot
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Out pefrom this outpeform that, theres never going to be any dog fighting, in any conflict ever again *that the western world will be fighting in*. Any air combat that does take place will be won at ludicrous distances, this is where the superior armament and radar systems of the F22 and Typhoon defeat anything the ruskies have. A 1 Supar flight manouvers to get underneath attacking air craft are all well and good but its never going to happen.

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01-13-2002 03:48 AM

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IceFire
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The unfortunate reality is that the F-22 in the future may be relegated to shooting down airliners....thats kind of pessimistic...but not so far fetched anymore.

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01-13-2002 05:15 AM

Kellan
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Carrot
Out pefrom this outpeform that, theres never going to be any dog fighting, in any conflict ever again *that the western world will be fighting in*. Any air combat that does take place will be won at ludicrous distances, this is where the superior armament and radar systems of the F22 and Typhoon defeat anything the ruskies have. A 1 Supar flight manouvers to get underneath attacking air craft are all well and good but its never going to happen.

Exactly what I mean when I say that the SU-37 needs improving to carry a better sensor package and more advanced missile weaponry. Then it'll have an advantage all around. Well...I'm sure there'd be tradeoffs, but I'm no aircraft engineer.

The SU-37 isn't the thing that venom has pictured, either - its got backswept wings, and looks rather like an A1-SUPAR fancy MiG from a distance.

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01-13-2002 01:48 PM

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venom2506
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edited, no need to start another flame war, after all.

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01-13-2002 02:49 PM

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CODEDOG ND
Babylon Project

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Pottsboro, TX USA
Posts: 289

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fury
But who had the most effective air forces?

MUAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Finland! Ya jerks! MUAHAHAHAHA!

We dropped the most enemy fighters and bombers when compared to the amount of fighters we had then!

Our land forces were pretty good too... minimal losses compared to those heavy losses on enemy side.

Too bad we didn't really have naval fleet...

Didn't the Soviets control Finland at the time?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IDF - USAF EXERCISES, MED, 5 May 99
In mock air battles during training exercises held about 2 months ago in the Negev between Israeli and US air force, Israeli pilots "shot down" 220 US aircraft, compared to 20 Israeli aircraft "shot down" by Ameri-can pilots. The exercise was the first time Israeli pilots trained against foreign pilots on such a wide scale. In the past, the IAF objected to such exercises for fear it would expose IAF tactics. However in recent years, IAF commander General Eitan Ben Eliyahu has increased such exercises to help train Israeli pilots against new tactics.
The US pilots flew F14 & F18 jets against the Israeli F15 & F16 jets. While the Israeli pilots drew much praise from the Americans, the Israeli side played down the one-sided results saying that the mock battles were mostly in close air battles - which is a particular strength of the Israelis.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iraqi's beat the US in mock battles as well with some pretty good fighters, Mirages I think. Look where it got them. It's widely known that the US doesn't strike anything close-up anymore unless there is no choice.

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Carrot
Canada has the best diesel powered submarines in the world, 8 of them bought from the RN for 5 dollars (US ) They should have gone for 100 mill each at least but it was a trade off ti use large swathes of canada as a perm training area for UK armed forces.

So be happy that Canada now has the ultimate in non nuclear hunter killer submarines (better then anything the US have) now if only i could remmber the class name

I Los Angeles-class would murder an old desiel(major sp) Sub.

quote:
Originally posted by Asmodai
I think invading Poland, Belgium, etc helped....

They didnt necessarily start WW1 I think, but they did the second one. I dont think they started building all those shiny tanks years prior because they were bored.

Ahem.

A Serbian hit man set that whole thing off. All of Europe was at each others throats, that was just the spark that started it.

And on the SU-37 vs the F-22, if you didn't know the F-22 has "steatlh technology" it's not like the F-117 or the B-2, but does have a minimized profile on radar about the size of a goose I think they said.

Last edited by CODEDOG ND on 01-13-2002 at 09:55 PM

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01-13-2002 09:23 PM

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Mr Carrot
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I cant remmber the class names but these things arnt old they were built in the late 80s early 90s and they kick the crap out of any nuke hunter killers the ruskies have anyway.

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01-15-2002 06:32 PM

venom2506
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Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND

And on the SU-37 vs the F-22, if you didn't know the F-22 has "steatlh technology" it's not like the F-117 or the B-2, but does have a minimized profile on radar about the size of a goose I think they said.

don't think so, the goose thinguy is for the 117

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01-15-2002 08:04 PM

IceFire
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The F-117 has the radar profile of a small bird (maybe a Sparrow or a Finch)...the F-22 has the radar profile of a duck maybe. The B-1B has the radar profile of a basketball and the B-2 is somewhat smaller than that.

The F-22 is quite stealth, its IR shielded, radar deflecting and absorbing, and the radar is designed to work extremely well in passive mode (no sensor emission).

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01-15-2002 09:04 PM

Black Sheep 2000
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: MÃ¶nchengladbach, NRW, Germany
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quote:
Originally posted by venom2506

don't think so, the goose thinguy is for the 117

The F-22 HAS a small radar profile. You cannot compare it with the profile of a Nighthawk, but still it is very small....and stealth capability is NOT a thingy for the F117 only. Currently any developer of military stuff tries to get a small radar profile. The EuroFigher e.g. has a far more smaller profile than the Tornado or the F4. Same thing counts for the F-22 as well as the B2.

Stealth capability is NOT a device...it is dependent on the aircraft's design (and how pilots use this...if they go up and down and turn around it also useless).

Edit: Oh yeah....and also dependent of the used materials

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Last edited by Black Sheep 2000 on 01-15-2002 at 09:45 PM

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01-15-2002 09:44 PM

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sandwich
United Space

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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quote:
Originally posted by IceFire
The F-117 has the radar profile of a small bird (maybe a Sparrow or a Finch)...the F-22 has the radar profile of a duck maybe. The B-1B has the radar profile of a basketball and the B-2 is somewhat smaller than that.

The F-22 is quite stealth, its IR shielded, radar deflecting and absorbing, and the radar is designed to work extremely well in passive mode (no sensor emission).

And the B-52 has the radar profile of a barn door.

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01-15-2002 10:32 PM

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Alikchi
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If I was in the air and I had a jet engine strapped to my back, would I look like a guy with a jet engine strapped to his back?

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01-16-2002 03:54 AM

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George
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Depending on how high you were, if you were really high (20,000 ft or something) you would look like a little dot (if anything at all). However, if you were at about 1 foot, you would look like an idiot with a jet engine on their back.

So I suppose the answer to your question is yes, but only if you were really low to the ground.

Now if you meant the radar image...I have no idea.

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01-16-2002 06:00 AM

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Ace
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01-16-2002 07:07 AM

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neimad
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quote:
Originally posted by Ace
[i]Small radar profiles are great and all, but when that Duck is flying at you at Mach 3 you know something's up

I wonder if they actually thought about that before investing all that money into radar absorbing technologies? If not, then all I can say is "Doh!".

Neimad

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01-16-2002 06:12 PM

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Black Sheep 2000
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LOL!...I see the first wildlife documentations...."The Mach-3 duck"

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01-16-2002 06:28 PM

IceFire
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The POINT of a small radar signature is twofold.

1) The profile is not a solid object (such as a basket ball), its the size of such an object in total, but its not specifically orange and round on the radar screen. So the overall image is quite a bit weaker.

2) Most radar, even the best, is not going to be able to even pick up an aircraft with such a profile. Meaning that they won't even see it on their radars....except at maybe extreme close range (in which case, why don't they just stick their heads out the door and listen).

Add proper tactics such as sensor jamming and using the current techniques like skimming under the radar beams and using terrain to block scans, you effectively become invisible to your enemy...or at least, pretty ghostlike until you're already able to hit them where it hurts.

Thats the point. They don't track ducks on radar, no matter how good it is, and so picking up a Mach 3 duck really isn't an issue. Besides, the F-22 is actually rated at about Mach 2.2 (1.2 I think on supercruise, which is a special feature as well).

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01-17-2002 01:07 AM

Ace
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Yes, yes, I know about all of the electronic warfare and such that's also being used, but I'm just pointing out a little absurdity that's funny

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01-17-2002 06:38 AM