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I am gonna say yes the shivans do have a Space Installation. Why you might ask? Well the shivan fleets have shown that they still need supply convoys (the shivans don't have Frieghters for nothing) and because of this the Shivans need a supply installation so thier Frieghters don't have to go through Eight to ten system to get what the fleet needs. Its a question of time and resources basically the Shivans have shown to have the ability to mobilize in horrifingly efficient pace to this end i wouldn't be surpised if they had an advanced network of Installations.

Now for those whom are gonna refute this remember everytime the Shivan Fleet moves they must ensure that they can be resupplied as fast as possible. Whenever you move in territory that is not under your control you distance yourself from your supply lines aswell meaning it will take longer for your supplies to get to you. Also they need Installations that have a garrison of Pilots and Soldiers because some ships in the SHivan fleet may have thier whole fighter compliment wiped out.

Also I reject the idea of the Shivans living or evolving in a Subspace enviroment. The Shivans are bio-mechanical creatures thus it is entirely possible that because of thier anatomy that they would be adept to living in any kind of enviroment. The reason behind it is that when the Marines in FS borded the Shivan Vessel they were in a Gravity controlled enviroment. Any species used to a ZeroG enviroment would be water logged by the gravitation.

Now I believe all of thier networks and installations are based in Normal Space due to the Comm Nodes. The Comm Nodes suggest that the Shivans may have a huge territory so it wouldn't be surprising if every Shivan system had a Comm Node that is apart of a huge communications network with a giant Comm Station at its heart. It also wouldn't be surprising that the Shivans would devote an Entire Sector to producing thier Capital ships. The ability to build 80 Sathanases ensures that they would need a rather large ammount of resource rich space to make that mass production possible.

As for Factories well they may employ the BattleZone method in which a Giant mobile Factor jumps into resource rich Area and sets up shop by deploying mining/refining units to grab the resource it needs to build whatever it is making. In this phase it would be immobilized so to devout its resources to manufacturing. It would economical due to the fact that when the resources of the area is depleted the Factory could get up and leave the area in search for more resources rather then a purely Immobilez factory that becomes an abandoned Waste.


Thats my theory...


Just edited some spelling errors.

Last edited by Falaris on 07-16-2001 at 09:50 PM

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The reason behind it is that when the Marines in FS borded the Shivan Vessel they were in a Gravity controlled enviroment. Any species used to a ZeroG enviroment would be water logged by the gravitation.

Wrong, the marines used magnetic or molecular bonding boots to move on the decks, observe how they move.

Also check http://descent-freespace.com/ for an on-line version of the FS universe reference document (canon), it's mentioned that there is no gravity within the freighter. The marines at first think it is due to the ship's being hit so hard by allied firepower.

However, you have a solid comment on supply lines.

We do know that the Shivans created cargo depots during the Great War as well as in the nebula prior to the Battle of Capella.

The only resources we have seen gathered by Shivans are nebular gases. We can assume it is for the same purposes as the Terrans use it for, powering fusion drives and reactors.

We know sub-space interferes with shields, and we know that the Lucifer was powered by five fusion reactors.

From this, we know that Shivan strike craft and Lucifer class ships do use fusion power, the other capital ships are powered by an unknown, likely sub-space source due to lack of shield systems.

This helps understand logistics, as they are used for fighters and Lucifer class vessels only out of Shivan craft we know of.

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we know the shivans maintain zero-g in their ships. the marines had to use magnetic boots to move around, and, if you look at the surrounding compartment, you will notice that it was large and had a large number of exposed pipes and was also rounded off. this provides a good environment for the crew in zero-g.

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I always thought the Marines moved so jerky because of a poor quality CGI (sorta like American CGI kid's shows). Anyway it still doesn't make sense to say the Shivans evolved in a Zero G enviroment when we have no idea of what they look like in thier original state. They are a highly modified race that suggest they were either constructed or the modified themselves to thier current state. The Shivans even in thier own Transport were not floating around but leaping and grabbing the walls like spider cricket towards the Marines. Maybe they don't bother with trying to make an Artificial gravity so not to waste energy. Humans require Gravity due to the fact that our muscles start to become weak eventaully leading to a human that can't even walk under his own power.


Where did you get that the Shivans were most likely using a Subspace power source for most of thier capital ships? How do you even harness Subspace power? Thier is no evidense to support that and a better theory would be if they forsaked the shield system for thier Beam system which fire 20 seconds faster then any Terran/Vasudan beam. Also niether the Demon nor Cain had shields so its plausible that the Shivan shield system requires a lot of energy and takes up a lot of room in the ship. The Shivan Beam Cannons may require so much energy that it is impossible for the cap-ship to provide the required energy needs for a shield system. If we look at Shivan cap-ship design we can see that the Shivans built the Ravan, Moloch, and Sathanas around their Beam cannons. Another possibility is that they threw away the shield system because of its problems blocking the beam cannons. Though this doesn't mean that the beam cannons are unblockable it could be that the shivans saw the inherit flaw and though unlikely they scrapped the current shield system for the Offensive powerhouse. I tend to agree with the Beam cannons drawing too much energy for the shield system to actaully be of any use.

Last edited by Falaris on 07-17-2001 at 04:44 AM

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Where did you get that the Shivans were most likely using a Subspace power source for most of thier capital ships?
As stated quite clearly, Shivan capital ships do not have shield systems. Sub-space disrupts shields. Logically Shivan capital ships are harnessing a powersource or capacity which nulifies the need for shields or ability to harness them. The simplest, and most unconvoluted anwer to the problem is sub-space in some form is being used as a power source.

Thier is no evidense to support that and a better theory would be if they forsaked the shield system for thier Beam system which fire 20 seconds faster then any Terran/Vasudan beam.
Balance wise; shields to defend even against strikecraft to faster beam recharge rates hardly equals. Clearly this is non-sequetor.

Also niether the Demon nor Cain had shields so its plausible that the Shivan shield system requires a lot of energy and takes up a lot of room in the ship.
This is a clear given, shield systems require exponential power requirements when beyond the size of a craft such as the Ursa bomber.


Another possibility is that they threw away the shield system because of its problems blocking the beam cannons.
The Lucifer had beam weaponry as well as shields, so this arguement is also moot.

I tend to agree with the Beam cannons drawing too much energy for the shield system to actaully be of any use.
As proven above, point is moot.

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It's not inconceivable that the GTVA develops subspace (or in this case ZPE) tap energy tech, based of Kayser tech.

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That's true, the GTVA could easily develop technologies like that.

However sub-space taps would negate shield systems.

ZPE taps would not. (and we know since the Kayser is based on ZPE, that Shivan weaponry which Kaysers are also based on use these prinicples)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Ace
Where did you get that the Shivans were most likely using a Subspace power source for most of thier capital ships?
As stated quite clearly, Shivan capital ships do not have shield systems. Sub-space disrupts shields. Logically Shivan capital ships are harnessing a powersource or capacity which nulifies the need for shields or ability to harness them. The simplest, and most unconvoluted anwer to the problem is sub-space in some form is being used as a power source.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Falaris
Actaully it seems to be that only a Ship designed to carry a Shield can carry it .

---

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Actaully you are wrong the Lucifer had a Laser Flux cannon. There was no beam cannon until FS2. The Shivans had a nasty little Laser cannon that while it isn't as strong the beam cannon nor a is it aconcentrated blast it does do a considerable ammount of damage though.
As generally accepted within the FS community, the flux cannon was FS1's version of beam weaponry. In the plot it behaves as such, as so is handeled as such.

Also no fighter based Shield can block an Anti-fighter beam. Infact if you ever get time to play this game you should notice that it doesn't even do damage to the shield but simply passes through as if its not thier. Oh, but WAIT! You'll explain it as one of those over complex theories in which only fighter shields can't protect against beam cannons.
True, however the only craft in FS2 that have shields are fighter based craft, and so your defense on this is moot due to no evidence to prove if beam weapons pass through capital class shields within plot or game save 3rd party modifications.

No Military might would use a power source that would leave thier ship vulnerable when they had the option to use an Older power source that would
provide better benifits.
True, but no military might would design a craft with such an achilles heel, especially when you know of the weakness. This is due to the Shivan's extensive knowledge of sub-space, and due to this clearly knowing that their vessels could be tracked.

If you forgot in FS the Lucifer was supposedly very weak when its shields dropped.
True, because the Lucifer was designed around it's reactor system meant to power it's shielding.


Did you actaully play FS or did someone tell you the lucifer had Beam Cannons? Only in FS2 does the Lucifer have beam cannons yet the Lucifer has no shields in FS2. Also in FS2 the lucifer has a Higher hit count then the Lucifer in FS.
...and the Lucifer has no shields in FS1, it uses an invunrible tag. This is insubstantial and does not pertain to what you have any grievience against.

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It seems to me that we have 2 uber-ego's here

The lucifer was only a destroyer, though. No? Which is the reason why the colossus was built. And since it was only made powerful enough to stand up to a lucifer, it was ineffective versus a sathanis. My $0.02... ;p

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...and what does this thread have to do with the Colossus? j/k

True, the Colossus was only meant to engage the Lucifer, but the GTVA did make a gambit on the assumption that the beams would penetrate the Lucifer's shields. (an assumption which hasn't been proven or disproven yet as we haven't seen what beams do to capship shields in the FS2 main campaign)

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Well, based on reading about a tenth of the topic () I've decided that you could easily go either way...so go with installations. Just the idea of attacking some sort of massive Shivan death star makes me drool. If I ever get around to building one, it will move- imagine playing a mission where suddenly this 150km wide spiky red spheroid slowly started to accelerate into subspace...and you were in it's way.

Basically, go with installations purely on merit of the Coolness factor.

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Shivans- how they evolved?

They could have been created by a race just to terminate any concurence in the Galaxy. Whether they have destroyed their creators or not is not important for us, but...

Shivans may have rosen on a small debris like planet circulating a pulsar. We know such sistems exist (first discovered non solar planet systemin 1992 by Aleksander Wolszczan consists of 3 planets , with masses of 0,014 1 and 2,5 Earth mass, size of system- about 1 A.U. =distance Sun- Earth) in our Galaxy. They could have lived and evolved with weak gravity (and no atmosphere since for that gravity is strongly needed), getting whole energy from pulsar- these are mainly X rays, Gamma and Radio Waves, just a bit of light. In such conditions they could have risen as combined bio-metal forms with their ships also consisting as this materials joined together.

Shields? Not practical, theu use far too much energy and doesn`t help in real combat, but strong beam raysinstead can destroy any enemy before getting seriously damaged. Shields are useful only for the smallest ships.

Ahh, one more thing. Living near pulsar, they don`t need planets, but supernova stars may suit them very well.

They work like ants, they don`t develop their ships through ages.

Capella? Another Supernova star was probably so important for them that they have run to get a new world there.

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This has been a great topic, so I'm going to bring it back up to the top.

On "neutron star Shivans" an interesting idea.

However remember that Capella went supernova, which vaporized it's planets, so no "new home for super-nova Shivan" comes out of that save for a star and a super hot plasma soup.

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Hell, if they are millenia old, they can wait a few thousand years for the surface to cool, hehe Unless they like the hot mag-ma...

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*notices the pungent aroma left in the BWO Forum*

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*looks confused*

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Years ago I used to play a table top board game set in the 4th Millenium. Its actualy taking of in the US and Canada so if you see a "Games Workshop" store, id advise you to stay clear unleess you want to be sold little lead figures by sweaty guys just a tad over exited by the latest minature release...

What has this to do with the topic I hear you cry...?
Welll this, some of the alien races for it had some well written background history, and one of them the Eldar, basically "Elfes" like from D&D but with laser guns had by far the most interesting background.

IN their early history they besiaclly become so depraved they release a Chaos God (which is bad) and he destroyes their home world and erradicates much of the Eldar race...itys a long time since I read this. Anyway, the eldar flee from their planets in Huge self sufficient star ships, eventually each one developes its own coustomes etc as the millenia pass...

The groovy thing is these Hive ships are pretty huge, ive always imagined the shivans to operate from huge Hive ships, as opposed to planets or indeed static installations. The benefits are quiet logical too, orbit a planet, mine it till the resouces are exhusted then move on. Kinda handy if you need to go around stomping on the new hostile races evolving in the universe.

Just a thought

E

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Interesting thought, a freespace mod based on Warhammer 40k's "Battlefleet gothic" i suggest some people look to games-workshop.com for a possible reference though.
i'm not a modder, just an ideas man.

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