Registered: Jul 2000
Location: The Cold Northland!
Posts: 8392

Ok...lets look at something else. Limits.

In FreeSpace and FreeSpace 2, we're very used to seeing capital ships. Infact, there is only a few missions where there were no capital ships at all. Toss one of those super powered capital ships into the fray and you change all of that - for the worse.

Why?

Because now you need twice as many bombers to take down the target. Now the mission designer becomes limited in where and when a capital ship is going to arrive. Limited in how that ship will interact with the mission, and limited in what he can do because now he's dedicated almost 1/5th of the number of ships he can reasonably fit into a mission just to take out a small capital ship.

I'm all for beefing them up a bit...but not like that at all.

__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 1901

Ok...lets look at something else. Limits.

In FreeSpace and FreeSpace 2, we're very used to seeing capital ships. Infact, there is only a few missions where there were no capital ships at all. Toss one of those super powered capital ships into the fray and you change all of that - for the worse.

Why?

Because now you need twice as many bombers to take down the target. Now the mission designer becomes limited in where and when a capital ship is going to arrive. Limited in how that ship will interact with the mission, and limited in what he can do because now he's dedicated almost 1/5th of the number of ships he can reasonably fit into a mission just to take out a small capital ship.

I'm all for beefing them up a bit...but not like that at all.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location: Israel
Posts: 144

I tend to agree with IceFire, even though I think that in a campaign like BWO, where there are lots of new ships, they should be specialized. I always thought it would be better to have a task-force of specialized ships (a la Homeworld) than some "jack-of-all-trades but master of none" type ships.
Of course, redoing ships to work that way is kinda out of the question, but I can wish, can't I?

__________________
-"Oh God, please don't kill me today. Tomorrow is so much better."
Spathi prayer, Star-Control 2

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location: Israel
Posts: 144

I tend to agree with IceFire, even though I think that in a campaign like BWO, where there are lots of new ships, they should be specialized. I always thought it would be better to have a task-force of specialized ships (a la Homeworld) than some "jack-of-all-trades but master of none" type ships.
Of course, redoing ships to work that way is kinda out of the question, but I can wish, can't I?

__________________
-"Oh God, please don't kill me today. Tomorrow is so much better."
Spathi prayer, Star-Control 2

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location: Israel
Posts: 144

I tend to agree with IceFire, even though I think that in a campaign like BWO, where there are lots of new ships, they should be specialized. I always thought it would be better to have a task-force of specialized ships (a la Homeworld) than some "jack-of-all-trades but master of none" type ships.
Of course, redoing ships to work that way (If they weren't created like that) is kinda out of the question, but I can wish, can't I?

__________________
-"Oh God, please don't kill me today. Tomorrow is so much better."
Spathi prayer, Star-Control 2

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location: Israel
Posts: 144

I tend to agree with IceFire, even though I think that in a campaign like BWO, where there are lots of new ships, they should be specialized. I always thought it would be better to have a task-force of specialized ships (a la Homeworld) than some "jack-of-all-trades but master of none" type ships.
Of course, redoing ships to work that way (If they weren't created like that) is kinda out of the question, but I can wish, can't I?

__________________
-"Oh God, please don't kill me today. Tomorrow is so much better."
Spathi prayer, Star-Control 2

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Roundhay, United Kingdom
Posts: 99

quote:

---

I always thought it would be better to have a task-force of specialized ships

---

I always thought it was better to have all rounded ships with a few specialized ones chucked in... the problem with specialized ships is that they can end up in situations by themselves in which they are totally useless... like a anit-capship cruiser running into a wing of bombers.

quote:

---

But come on, putting a new reactor and a pair of relatively small Vasudan beams on a 35-year-old cruiser can't be that far-fetched.

---

Really sorry there chromatix, I mis-read your post and thought you were talking about Shivan beams.

(Pr011 slaps himself for being silly)

__________________
What can I say? Life is fun.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Roundhay, United Kingdom
Posts: 99

quote:

---

I always thought it would be better to have a task-force of specialized ships

---

I always thought it was better to have all rounded ships with a few specialized ones chucked in... the problem with specialized ships is that they can end up in situations by themselves in which they are totally useless... like a anit-capship cruiser running into a wing of bombers.

quote:

---

But come on, putting a new reactor and a pair of relatively small Vasudan beams on a 35-year-old cruiser can't be that far-fetched.

---

Really sorry there chromatix, I mis-read your post and thought you were talking about Shivan beams.

(Pr011 slaps himself for being silly)

__________________
What can I say? Life is fun.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Budapest - Hungary
Posts: 32

After reading the whole board I felt like I need to add some of my own ideas.
First: FS in terms of weaponry and fleet shows a great deal of parallelity with modern naval warfare. However I'll start with something else - an imaginary developmnet history of FS ships.
My guess is that development must have started with fighters (...and we're still lightyears away from the W-T war, it's a relativly good assumtion that mankind will still wage some war among itslef even in space-age) then cruisers were introduced with hard enough armor to take down whole compliments of fighters.
In FS1 they had almost no use at all!! This should be fixed in BWO. I don't mean super-cruisers or ect. just a bit more effective "ordinary" arnament - turrets equiped with smg. as powerful as a Prometheus-R or S nothing more powerful - since all of these are "new technologies" introduced during the "Second Great War", and as such must be quite expensive.
Back to development - interstellar subspace travel needed capital size ships, since only theses could create the jump (FS Reference Bible).
In terms of naval warfare fighters were like small boats (can you put it any better way?) and cruisers like the trinaries. The capships - now serving only as carriers from one system to another - like galleons, capable of crossing great distances.
Try to imagine what it must have cost to make one of these (interstellar subspace travel is still a risky enterprise), and what it could mean to loose of of them.
Would you take such a ship into battle?
...
So what was the primary role of the capships? The same as a carrier - for a mobile base meant a fighters and bombers could be deployed in great quantities - and the lack of the strains of building a ship capable of surviving on its own (early "fighters" must have been bugger a lot more bulkier, smg. like a mini cruiser) meant more powerful fighters and bombers-capable of taking down a cruiser since they were a lot more manouverable.

In FS1 cap ships were simple aircraft carriers. The most powerful ships on water - a lesson learnt from WWII.

However in FS the actual big guns (beam turrets) arrived later than their "antidote" and we focus on battles fought with nothing but beams.
Although it's easy to take down a Capship *Orion* with these - the fighter complement can make short work of the Battleship we're dreaming about.
This is the reason why the Collosus was the strongest ship to be ever built (stronger than a Shatanes - since that's a Battleship!-which can smash a carrier if it gets close).

Missions should focus on fighters and bombers - and their weaponry should be upgraded to deal with the "Battleships"- since balance - the fact that the player's action should destin a battle is ultimate for a good game.

I loved Derelict because capships hadn't show up until late - and this thought you to really value them. They should be rare, since they're damn expensive.

For the same reason cruisers and big ships in general should be given a better array of anti-fighter weaponry (in terms of FS1 technology) and a new generation of bombing technology against battle ships.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Budapest - Hungary
Posts: 32

After reading the whole board I felt like I need to add some of my own ideas.
First: FS in terms of weaponry and fleet shows a great deal of parallelity with modern naval warfare. However I'll start with something else - an imaginary developmnet history of FS ships.
My guess is that development must have started with fighters (...and we're still lightyears away from the W-T war, it's a relativly good assumtion that mankind will still wage some war among itslef even in space-age) then cruisers were introduced with hard enough armor to take down whole compliments of fighters.
In FS1 they had almost no use at all!! This should be fixed in BWO. I don't mean super-cruisers or ect. just a bit more effective "ordinary" arnament - turrets equiped with smg. as powerful as a Prometheus-R or S nothing more powerful - since all of these are "new technologies" introduced during the "Second Great War", and as such must be quite expensive.
Back to development - interstellar subspace travel needed capital size ships, since only theses could create the jump (FS Reference Bible).
In terms of naval warfare fighters were like small boats (can you put it any better way?) and cruisers like the trinaries. The capships - now serving only as carriers from one system to another - like galleons, capable of crossing great distances.
Try to imagine what it must have cost to make one of these (interstellar subspace travel is still a risky enterprise), and what it could mean to loose of of them.
Would you take such a ship into battle?
...
So what was the primary role of the capships? The same as a carrier - for a mobile base meant a fighters and bombers could be deployed in great quantities - and the lack of the strains of building a ship capable of surviving on its own (early "fighters" must have been bugger a lot more bulkier, smg. like a mini cruiser) meant more powerful fighters and bombers-capable of taking down a cruiser since they were a lot more manouverable.

In FS1 cap ships were simple aircraft carriers. The most powerful ships on water - a lesson learnt from WWII.

However in FS the actual big guns (beam turrets) arrived later than their "antidote" and we focus on battles fought with nothing but beams.
Although it's easy to take down a Capship *Orion* with these - the fighter complement can make short work of the Battleship we're dreaming about.
This is the reason why the Collosus was the strongest ship to be ever built (stronger than a Shatanes - since that's a Battleship!-which can smash a carrier if it gets close).

Missions should focus on fighters and bombers - and their weaponry should be upgraded to deal with the "Battleships"- since balance - the fact that the player's action should destin a battle is ultimate for a good game.

I loved Derelict because capships hadn't show up until late - and this thought you to really value them. They should be rare, since they're damn expensive.

For the same reason cruisers and big ships in general should be given a better array of anti-fighter weaponry (in terms of FS1 technology) and a new generation of bombing technology against battle ships.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 27

Oooh, use my version of the Hecate > ) muhahahahahahahahahahaha. That whole post I made was going to be about just the Hecate but I expanded it a little :-p.

I think fighters would have been smaller actually. Not using fusion drives but something more "realistic" like an ion drive or even a drive that uses solid fuel. Needs less room to propel the ship.

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Last edited by Stalker on 07-07-2002 at 12:18 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 27

Oooh, use my version of the Hecate > ) muhahahahahahahahahahaha. That whole post I made was going to be about just the Hecate but I expanded it a little :-p.

I think fighters would have been smaller actually. Not using fusion drives but something more "realistic" like an ion drive or even a drive that uses solid fuel. Needs less room to propel the ship.

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Last edited by Stalker on 07-07-2002 at 12:18 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 91

I don't think fuel will exist in the future.

__________________
Lion Heart - Also known as JR2000Z

Bringing.....posts....to the FreeSpace community since February 2000.

VBB
RIP

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 91

I don't think fuel will exist in the future.

__________________
Lion Heart - Also known as JR2000Z

Bringing.....posts....to the FreeSpace community since February 2000.

VBB
RIP

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 27

What are they going to do? We dont know how to harness fusion power as of now and cold fusion is far beyond us. So what will we do? Strap massive solar panels to our ships? Just use a more advanced version of NASA's ion drive.

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 27

What are they going to do? We dont know how to harness fusion power as of now and cold fusion is far beyond us. So what will we do? Strap massive solar panels to our ships? Just use a more advanced version of NASA's ion drive.

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 27

Oh I learned we do have fusion reactors but they barely produce enough energy to be reasonable and they're quite huge. Hey that magnetic bottle needs a LOT of power, one megawatt or something, 6000 degrees fahrenheit it contains or something close to that.

BTW: Hecate changes in my post would make it a true battleship (in the modern day sense of the word) muhahahaha.

"This is the Warlock, now on station."

*Two forward BFGreens fire, Golgotha's meson cannon takes heavy damage. Hecate pushes engines to max and turns, bringing to bear its two MGreens and the TerSlash.*

DIE GOLGOTHA! Experimental stuff is always evil, we've learned that from Silent Threat...

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Last edited by Stalker on 07-13-2002 at 09:45 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 27

Oh I learned we do have fusion reactors but they barely produce enough energy to be reasonable and they're quite huge. Hey that magnetic bottle needs a LOT of power, one megawatt or something, 6000 degrees fahrenheit it contains or something close to that.

BTW: Hecate changes in my post would make it a true battleship (in the modern day sense of the word) muhahahaha.

"This is the Warlock, now on station."

*Two forward BFGreens fire, Golgotha's meson cannon takes heavy damage. Hecate pushes engines to max and turns, bringing to bear its two MGreens and the TerSlash.*

DIE GOLGOTHA! Experimental stuff is always evil, we've learned that from Silent Threat...

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Last edited by Stalker on 07-13-2002 at 09:45 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: belleville IL USA
Posts: 1428

if you jumped in any angle that would alow you to hit the beam, the beam would be able to hit you,
wich means you would be dead
the best tactic would be to jump in from behind try to take out the main engines, then go for the meason reactor, or the Knossial coil if you
get the coil it wouldn't be able to fire, if you get the reactor it won't have much power left in the coil to fire
pull to one side (directly above/below you are vulnerable to six anti capship beams) and concentrate on the big green beam in the front (not the main cannon emiter) then the two smaller beams in the back, go for the forward engines and then just sit there and rip it apart.

__________________
Bobboau, bringing you products that work ......... In theory

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: belleville IL USA
Posts: 1428

if you jumped in any angle that would alow you to hit the beam, the beam would be able to hit you,
wich means you would be dead
the best tactic would be to jump in from behind try to take out the main engines, then go for the meason reactor, or the Knossial coil if you
get the coil it wouldn't be able to fire, if you get the reactor it won't have much power left in the coil to fire
pull to one side (directly above/below you are vulnerable to six anti capship beams) and concentrate on the big green beam in the front (not the main cannon emiter) then the two smaller beams in the back, go for the forward engines and then just sit there and rip it apart.

__________________
Bobboau, bringing you products that work ......... In theory

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged