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Post #100!

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Spammer...

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quote:

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Originally posted by IceFire:
When the star exploded, the gravity well would change instantaneously because gravity isn't reliant on waiting for light to catch up.

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That speed-of-light thing is correct.

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Let us ride to...Camelot!
:dorky music video:
On second thought, let's NOT go to Camelot.
'Tis a silly place.

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I'm not disputing what you might have heard from a univesity prof...but im pretty sure that gravitational changes are not limited to the speed of light (hell, some charged particles aren't either).

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From what I've read, gravitational forces are not reliant upon the speed of light. Now say you have a rope that's a light year long, and you wiggle an end, it will take one year for the other end to feel the vibration.

However, gravitational forces aren't limited by this speed limit from what I've read.

Also, on the comment that "random nodes would be created" they would not be random at all, the Shivans would control the reaction so that the new nodes would be entirely formed at the exact positions and destinations desired.

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Here's my first post to this bulletin, so you are welcomed to flame my newbie ass.

Snipes wrote:
If you think about it... The tech room says that shivans appear to have been built.
Maybe the Ancients built them. Ever think that?
And when the Shivan creatures were made there was a glitch in their programming and they became too strong, and they killed off the ancients before they had a chance to stop them, with the subspace knowledge they had.
The shivans just kept getting more and more powerful while mass-producing, and taking over system by system killing everything they found, including stars and planets.

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I seriously disagree, chances are the Shivans existed before the ANCIENTS. The cutscenes prove it anywho.
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On EMP shock waves as a possible super weapon to be used against them there is that possibility. Honestly though, if volition decided to implement such a weakness, I'd be terribly disappointed. Shivan tech will most likely be crystal based, not with semiconductors. They'd use light as their storage and transmission signals at the very least. Remember, they communicate via electromagnetic pulses - ELECTRO MAGNETIC PULSES E.M.P. In order to ensure there isnt any interference, they'd have to have a electronics system far more futuristic and advanced than the weeny semi-conductor.

As for any of you that would suggest that the EMP is valid coz using the human as an example, if you create a sound loud enough, a human can be deafened or even injured - we know that Shivans use EMP to communicate over long distances. Just so you know, they need to "shout" really loud to get a message across space. What with the little ships flying around, you'd think they be dead by all this shouting.

Another reason I disagree with EMP as a weapon against Shivans is Hyperspace. Ships can travel though hyperspace need sheilding of some sort to protect against the weird energies flowing through it or even to pierce through normal space into the nth dimension of hyperspace, then you'd need to maintain a shield of some sort to continue traveling in hyperspace in the right direction. How we manage to fly in hyperspace without any kind of shielding in Freespace is beyond me. Even in Star Trek, you need to have that warp bubble field - I no trekkie so I forgot what that field is, to achieve warp speeds

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Jennings wrote:
Yes. Untill half a second later I realized that if the Ancients had built them, they would have known how to destory them. They wouldn't have had to discover their ships can be tracked, they would have already known it.

I disagree, if you started creating a human being through cloning methods to make it "perfect" - immune to desease, elements, make it stronger, smarter etc etc. dont you think they'd win any war we started against them? If we thought to put an inherent weakness - a flaw in their design, then dont you think that when the clones found out they'd undo that weakness? They'd hate you even more actually.

Also, what is with this notion that the Ancients created them? I never got the notion that the ancients did. In fact, there isnt any supporting evidence.
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Ace wrote:
I'm going on from what a writer at the big V told me when he said that "the ancient's technology is only a decade more advanced that the GTA's or VPE's, without Shivan intervention..."

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and i'd feel very bad about this significant turn around. The ancients could build jump gates, that is a very significant piece. Its better than the pyramids during our time. Were it not for that jump gate, we'd never even have the data to create one nor would we have known it were possible.
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Ace wrote:
Also, if the Shivans were created by the ancients, their language would have semblance to the ancient's script even after 8,000 years. (if programmed, the script is still the same, even if they wish to be different than their creators)

I disagree. If I created a robot, I'd program them to talk a human language. But for really advanced AI speaking to another AI, the human language is slow, disruptive to logical thinking etc etc. I'd say that the only common thing between the language of the Shivans and Ancients (and humans/vasudan for that matter) is mathematics.
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ace wrote:
That is true, the ancients did have more advanced sub-space technologies, and they did conquer many other races but since they did not encounter any with shielding technologies they did not have weaponry designed against them.

I think that that isnt what was meant. When the ancients referred to Shivan "superiority" they were talking about the Dreadnaughts or the Lucifer. The Shivans were already so advaned that they could pack so much power into space craft of that size - ie. Lucifer. They may also have been very numerous. Those guns on the lucifer are damned impressive. It could be that the Ancients had yet to create such weapons. As for shielding, it could be that the ancients had shielding but the Shivan type of shielding was superior in some way. Remember that we had to make our own shields before we came up with weapons that were effective against it.

Additionally, the Shivans are a totally radically different life-form compared to the carbon-based lifeforms they encountered - humans, vasudans and (I'm assuming) Ancients. Surely their way of thinking or living would have resulted in them taking a very different technology path. They actually communicate using EMP, surely their energy physics is more superior or radically different compared to carbon-based lifeforms that need to communicate using sound. I assume the ancients use some tactile sense coz the cutscenes were in english... heheh.

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Sandwich wrote:
What do you all think the connection is between the Shivans and nebulae?

read bottom where i comment on IceFire's post.

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Bobboau wrote:
"They were like the others, but they would not die..."

Snipes and Bobboau have got something working there with
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Ace wrote:

Vasudan technology is mainly based on either observed or stolen Terran devices, and vice versa, and with Shivan technology added to Terran weapons theory, and with the GTI's use of Shivan shielding in experiments, when the great war truly began they were quickly able to intergrate the technologies.

I disagree with that one. Dont credit the Terrans and Shivans with everything. As I recall, the Vasudans had a more advanced energy system/supply and their ships had better energy management systems. Also note that their fighter craft seem a lot more durable than terran designs, they've had a longer effective life in service than most terran designs.

On this, subject we also know that Terran and Vasudan capital ships utilize artificial gravity, the design of early V-T war ships would fit more with what you might see in a physics book, save the addition of a sub-space drive and some nuclear warhead bays.

You're walking on thin air here. I wont agree here coz I dont know much about gravity physics and the idea sounds a little iffy. Also note that many sci-fi writers for computer games dont take real world physics too seriously so many take for granted that space cruisers will automatically have artificial gravity.

I agree with you on the economic aspects and the one-up-ism of the T-V war.
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Ace wrote:
The Shivans from what we do know do not have Knossos devices despite them being in Derelict. (that part of the plot I did not suggest to Kellan and those folks )
instead as I've stated before, their drives allow travel through the most unstable natural nodes, which means that in-effect each Shivan ship is it's own Knossos device.

There is no evidence to this, but it is possible. It may be also possible that the Shivans have devices that can stablize nodes, it is not necessary that the node in FS2 was stable because of the Knossos gate. The Shivans could have been fast enough in catching the gate before the terrans blew up the Knossos in order to stablize it. That's why they sent their fighters accross - delaying action while they worked on it.

I suggest this coz their juggernaughts have devices that could cause stars to go nova. I believe that they de-stablized the gravity of the star or sped up the nuclear reaction process in the star long enough for it to blow up. I'm unsure about this but notice that the star blew up twice in that final cutscene - it didnt expand - a star expands as its fuel (hydrogen) runs out and it starts burning the heavier helium gases ala Alpha Centauri.
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beam weapons is as Ace says - results of scans of the Lucifer. I accredit the flak cannons to terrans tho. We just love to shoot lots of metal at multiple objects at a time. I draw this conclusion from our "spray and pray" mentality that seems to be supported in FS2 - them lasers. Note that the terran version of the standard laser is fast firing. Vasudan versions are slower but more powerful... gee, i can't remember correctly actually. Which had the faster firing, weaker lasers? Anywho, terrans have always had the spray and pray thing, so it fits our personality.
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Organic/Vasudan ship designs - the Vasudans have better energy efficiency in their ship design. Their power reactors are also better - higher power output. I dont see why terran ships look so organic tho. Probably for aesthetics - the vasudans liked weird angles, the look kewl too.

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Ace, I've just started arguing points with you and then I find out you're working with the writers of Volition... blardy heck and I was here arguing points with you all the while not knowing my thought may be irrelevant.

What the hey, let's continue anyway. Give you more ideas.
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IceFire proposed that the Shivans were possibly a tool of a master race. If anybody here ever played Star Control 2 (SC2 not that farce SC3), the Mycon are an excellent example of a race created as a tool.

It could be that the Shivans had found a way to escape their masters which is somehow tied to VERY BIG nuclear explosions. They blew up the previous nebulae - the one we encountered entering the knossos gate, in their first attempt at escape. But the experiment may not have gone too well. They perhaps had to look for a specific type of star to blow up - gravity, size, temperature etc. and capella fit the bill just nicely. They had yet to find capella so before they could go searching for that next star to blow up their masters told them to go blow up them pesky terrans and vasudans on that side of the galaxy.

Now they are back and trying everything in their power to complete their experiment - that requires capella being blown up. They dont want to kill us humans coz they need to use their precious time to escape. They fought us because they needed us to go away from the Capella star and show to their masters that they were doing their job. They also needed to collect their fleet together - the fleet were probably scatered around their section of space.

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Referring to Icefire's note on shields in hyperspace:
Use of shields in hyperspace could potentially be fatal. Just imagine this, we can create a stream of anti-matter particles today by encasing a nuclear reaction - nuclear expolsion essentially albeit small one, it in a magnetic field. This process is described as trying to hold jello with a rubber band so we can only create and maintain the anti-matter for a few seconds. Just imagine what problems would arise by creating a magnetic field (energy shield) in a magnetic field (hyperspace bubble) in a magnetic field (hyperspace) filled with anti-matter - or god knows what weird energy/particles/matter.

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On Ace's note of shielding and its protection:
There may be many different types of shields that may exist. One shield I refer to as a Magnetic Particle Field. Essentially a magnetic field surrounding a ship that holds a lot of particles. These particles can potentially absorb enery or slow down projectiles - think kevlar vest.

The second is the "energy shield" so popular in pop-sci. Basically it is a field - could be electro-magnetic, maybe another form of energy that can be easily manipulated but up to the writer of the scifi flick, that essentially turns away/deflects "energy". The idea is to deflect and disperse energy away from the point of contact thus reducing the energy transfered to the target. Anyone who know about guns know that a bullet does damage via energy transferance. The more energy transfered from a bullet to the target the better (yes yes, i know about penetration and those other factors). When an "energy packet" from an "energy weapon" hits the shield, the energy is deflected at the point of contact to dissipate into the surrounding area - converted to something else or bounces/richochets off the shield. In actuality, the deflector shields of the Enterprise would blaze blindingly bright when struck by whatever it is they're shooting at each other coz the energy is transformed into light - the easiest energy transformation posible to me.

There are other versions that run along the same lines of "absorb" and "deflect". I havent thought of another which is possible according to the rules of physics - these two are already a stretch of imagination. Basically, particle (kinetic) weapons penetrate "deflector" shields - depends on the scifi writer since deflectors "deflect" energy and moving particles are bundles of kinetic energy. Energy weapons penetrate "abosorption" shields.

Ace wrote:
If you notice, when shields are low damage "leaks" through, this is due to the weaponry not being dispersed over the shield matrix, as well as the explosive force is penetrating the screening.
I can stop talking about shields now except to mention that shields take up remarkable amounts of power to generate. Thus Ace's thought that it is expensive to make personal shields is right if not impossible.

As for space bombs - they are proly primed to explode on contact with hull or detection of a shield matrix. The incredible amount of damage "leaks" through as Ace says.
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On the Shivan Hive Mind mentallity:

I dont see why everyone thinks the Shivans are a hive mind type race. Just because the intelligence reports in FS2 say so doesnt mean it is so. They could be highly aggressive creatures that are very cohesive as a team. Note that humans thrived becoz of tool use (technology) and team work (bullying).
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Ace wrote:

Overall, the Shivans show two characteristics than can be proved:

Of the 2, the first I agree with the first whole-heartedly. As for the second... there is that possibility that they work better together when there are more of em. Most arguments that support this refer to the destruction of the Lucifer and how the Shivan forces fell apart after that.

I disagree with this because... well, wouldnt you be damned demoralized when the pride of your fleet gets wasted? The invincible death star just got moved down. Look at star wars. Also, the generals of the entire campaign would be on the flagship of the invasion force... and what is that flagship? Yes, of course, its the Lucifer. I dont think that line grunts will be able to function very well if you cut the whole upper key chain of command AND their most important aspects - communication and intelligence. Both of which would also be based on board, or have major lines in, the Lucifer.

As for that nebulae thing... well, we know that there were lots of Shivan forces in there - the whole freaking juggernaught armade was proly in there. Now holidaying in your enemies backyard is not a good idea. They were smarter coz they had entire divisions of generals to command. Heck, that nebulae could have been the command center for ALL Shivan operations. Wouldnt you fare better fighting on your own terms? Defending the motherland to boot?

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on economy and resources of Earth:
Ace wrote:
Now as we know, most moons within our system are comprised of thick layers of methane ice, which means that there is little reaction mass for fusion reactors, as well as the cost to penetrate these layers to gain access of raw ore will cost more than the gain.

I disagree, fusion/fision power supply would come from
1. water - fision of H2O into hydrogen and oxygen, we got lots of that
2. methane - is already a source of energy, create a methane engine
3. there is this thing called a RAM scoop used to mine gas giants for gas for nuclear engines.
All of the above are available sources of power TODAY. But I agree with Ace that we would have depleted our ore deposits rather quickly. Social and economic depression will have occurred quickly. Which leads us to our next question
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Snipe wrote:
Now presuming Sol survives the restructuring of it's economy and government... What would we come back to find? Is BWO an accurate description?

depends on whether you want the best, most likely or worst case scenario.
1. Worst case is that you'd find the Earth humans had nuked themselves to kingdom come.
2. Best case is that they discovered ways to detect and open unstable/old jump nodes - ala creating their own knossos gates which open in the opposite direction of the old Earth "empire". Achieve "Starfleet" like living standards.
3. Most likely case in view of current speculation is that they find some way to maintain themselves - ala best case scenario. They'd proly become elitist pigs ("we defeated the Lucifer, bow before my superiority etc etc"). They'd have very different tech and space craft. They would proly have very advanced prometheus cannons too. Economy would be run by incredibly large mega-corporations.
4. another possibility is that they become more "Starfleet" or maybe a communist state. All things considered the government has to be partially military and run like a police state ala USSR/East Germany- coz in such desperate situations you cannot afford human indiscipline. Note the ending credits of FS1, they would proly be very geared up for war. Possibly have very different tech in terms of weapons of war. Due to lack of raw materials, there is a move away from missile tech to energy tech - possibly a ball of plasma with large splash area but fires forward like lasers. Tech will be energy efficient, micronization of equipment will be heavy. Ships will proly have little armor but heavy shielding. Focus on speed and meneuverability due to lack of armor.

If I were a writer for this game I would go number 4. I'd also give Earth very different Capital ship weapons - no beam guns for one coz beam guns seem to be more of a GTVA thing.
A. I'd give capital ships "Pulse" lasers which is basically the same as a beam cannon but would look like large "pulses" of energy being pushed towards a target rapidly. Only the animation of the beam needs editing - the beam is multi-colored like a rainbow twisting in on itself in a cylinder shape forming blobs at intervals.
B. X-ray Laser - this laser weapon damages the side facing away from the attacker. Thus if you shot the X-ray laser at the port bow of the ship, the starboard bow will take damage. The starboard bow will also glow brightly. Any craft near this side of the ship takes damage. (This laser exists today if you have to know. Was part of the Anti-Ballistic Missile project)

No flak, but again energy weapons that would be very devastating to fighter craft:
1. multi-faceted laser arrays - 8 to 16 high powerd prometheus cannons tied together in on bundle that fire as one cannon. It has a large surface area so its easy to hit fighters.
2. High Intensity Magnetic Plasma Caster - large ball of plasma enveloped in a magnetic field. The plasma is held for so long as the field is in effect, when field is no longer strong enough to hold, the plasma is released into the surrounding area. Instead of an explosion, there would be a brilliant flash of light. Plasma Caster works on the same principle as the containment of antimatter.
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On the matter of the creation of new nodes:
Referring to Ace's theory that blowing up a star to create a new node holds some water. If the writers decided on that it is an interesting idea. Blackholes are known to be created by dying stars that fall into each other. It is plausible that some extremely powerful gravitational event could cause the creation of a wormhole.

The bad part of the whole thing and a good plot contrivance is that the node doesnt necessarily open in capella. The node would open in a position where a very stable jump node once existed - which actually has to be within a few light years of Capella... Earth?
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referring to quantum gravity and light:
I no expert on it, but it may be possible - from a partially sci-fi point of view, that there are ways to travel faster than light. Hyperspace is obviously that, the access of the nth dimension where all things are at the same place. Gravity need not be tied to light as it is thought to be the key to the study of other dimensions. If gravity is tied to other dimensions, it is reasonable to suggest that gravity may circumvent light in terms of travel. Gravity is permeated throughout the universe after all, light is an energy form.

Ace and IceFire got the general idea that I share.

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Apologies to Ace and IceFire if I seem very criticizing or thread on parts that have already been written by [V]. Just sharing some bits some people may be interested in. And to pass along some ideas to you guys - you seem to be tied to the design process somehow.

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Well on the AIs, math is a human construct with basis in reality.

Now the math system AIs would be using would still be based upon their progenitor's language despite their reprogramming themselves.

Also, from what we know about sub-space, there is no need for "special shielding" other than what is within the bare hulls of GTVA warships. (generally ablative surfaces, crushed molybdenum, and ferro-fibrous meshes I assume)

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Math is considered the universal language, there is supposed to be no difference in the form and principles of math from one cultture to another and supposedly from one species to another.

If we were to create truly advanced AI - especially the kind that can propagate (and i dont mean computer viruses or algos), given sufficient sophistication they would be able to alter themselves as they propagate. Thus they would optimize themselves. They are not reliant on their progenators language nor their progenators programming language. They MAY be reliant to their progenators programming logic tho.

As for ablative surfaces, crushed molybdenum, and ferro-fibrous meshes surviving in hyperspace this may be true if hyperspace is not a hostile place to be. Note that alternate dimensions will probably have weird physics of their own, thus ships may needs some form of protection against energy enamations which fills hyperspace. Note the cutscene where they introduce jump drives for fighters. The schematic clearly shows the projection of an field of some sort. Thus there exist the possibility that in the FS universe, there is a need for a special kind of shielding to maintain a ships presence in hyperspace or to protect against weird physics and all that.

It is possible that the use of these materials is enough coz they are materials designed to protect against damage.

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Thats some class A rebuttal. I like people who can argue back.

Just a few things to pick out. Vasudan ships had more effecient engines and power distribution systems on most ships. Except the Typhon which suffered when paired with the beam cannons. We can extrapolate that Vasudan systems are less modular than Terran ones potentially making them more effecient but less adaptable.

Vasudan ships were and still are not however as durable as their Terran counterparts. The Apollo during the T-V war was far in advance of the Anubis in every aspect and about on par with the Seth. The Valkyrie had more durability than the Horus. In 2376 the Serapis and Thoth are vastly undershielded and armored compaired to the Perseus and Myrmidon.

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Thats some class A rebuttal. I like people who can argue back.

Whut? we're having a discussion not an arguement. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, the entirety of the FS universe is the creation of them FS designers. They're god here so its their say.

I came here coz a friend of mine directed me here. Not sure why tho. But the discussion was interesting so I pitched in.

Just a few things to pick out. Vasudan ships had more effecient engines and power distribution systems on most ships. Except the Typhon which suffered when paired with the beam cannons. We can extrapolate that Vasudan systems are less modular than Terran ones potentially making them more effecient but less adaptable.

That is reasonable. Terrans preferred the modularity approach which allows us to be very adaptable to situations. The Vasudans seem to have lived in a caste system so they proly thought less about modularity. They'd focus on robustness and efficiency - two things that are sorely needed in a caste system.

Typhon systems suffered from incompatibility with beam cannons doesnt really suggest that its power system is faulty.

In support of your argument is that the Vasudans went and built capital ships for the express purpose of putting beam cannons on it. Because of this I aint gonna argue this point - till I come up with some interesting supporting evidence. heheh, its interesting to discuss sci-fi.

Vasudan ships were and still are not however as durable as their Terran counterparts. The Apollo during the T-V war was far in advance of the Anubis in every aspect and about on par with the Seth. The Valkyrie had more durability than the Horus. In 2376 the Serapis and Thoth are vastly undershielded and armored compaired to the Perseus and Myrmidon.

This is what I find so odd and saddening. Generally speaking, the Vasudan ought to have ships which have long service life - but they dont as evidenced by their Typhon. As for the Thoth, I always thought it sacreligeous for the Thoth to have been so wimpy - its good, but not good enough.

Another thing you'd notice in FS2 is that the Vasudans seem to be de-mobilizing and disarming. They arent even trying to keep up with Terrans in weapon tech. It seems plausible to suggest that they dont feel the need to and are becoming reliant on Terrans. They seem to be more present in the R&D of the alliance instead of the battle field as evidenced by how much everything has become so organic looking.

It is also plausible that the big [V] people got lazy so didnt want to bother adding new Vasudan stuff. This is whut I think is the case, more focus on the "human" heroes over the "evil" aliens.

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Anyways, a Shivan attempt on Sol would be quite quite difficult, even for them.

Even tho the Shivans are quite advanced, anything in the potential future will bring the GTVA on par with Shivan technology due to the rate of adaptability.

And I'm so pissed because of that. The story just got a lot more boring. Sure Shivans can make stars go nova, sure they have the sathani and lots of them too but there isnt anything truly alien about them. That the GTVA can so readily achieve a tech level on par with the Shivans in such a short time just stinks rotten eggs.

The beam cannon in FS1 was impressive the first time we encountered it but it got old real fast in FS2 - looks good, idea is old.

As for a Shivan attempt on Sol... last I checked there were a hundred Sathani around Capella... one GTVA juggernaught needed HELP do take down the Sathanas... which part of absolutely screwed did you not understand?

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Every discussion is an argument in one way shape or form. I've done regional debating for three years of my highschool career so this is a debate...a rebuttal is part of that and I was congratulating you on a good refutation of points. Good work .

In my opinion, the Shivans ARE truly alien. They are probably the most alien species in a science fiction series yet. We don't understand their motives, their reasons or their tactics. They are mysterious and they are deadly.

I'm not disputing the fact that they are deadly. I'm saying that the GTVA has the capability to shut Sol off from attack once again by collapsing the node. If they weather another attack, then they just rebuild the portal. The Terrans and Vasudans have shown themselves to be capable of adapting to different situations. Its possible that this adaptability is something that the Shivans decided to study with Bosch. If thats the case (I just thought of this now) then they may have retreated to study and integrate that aspect of humans into their own collective (I hate the Borg references, but thats the idea im on). Some of their ships potentially have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years with little progress.

The ship that attacked the Ancients, be it the Lucifer or not, was shielded suggesting they had that technology 8,000 years before. Why hasn't it been improved and put on their other ships? Was the Lucifer a one of a kind ship?

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Also, the GTVA's gaining technology that quickly does not show "that the Shivans are pathetic."

As stated earlier in this thread, before the Great War, the GTI had contact with Shivan technologies and systems for decades before.

Thus a great deal of Terran technologies used in the V-T war were based upon Shivan principles and of course Vasudan espionage would mean that they would field similar forces.

Overall, with the great war humanity's ability to quickly adapt as well as undocumented previous experiences with Shivan technologies led to the adaptation of their technology.

Yes, the GTVA may have technology that is now in many ways equivalent to that of the Shivans, but the alliance lacks the Shivans sheer resources. (as well as time in existance)

The question to ask is why haven't the Shivans advanced their technology over the millions of years of their being, is it because they've never needed to? ...more importantly what happens when the Shivan machine is driven to adapt to their new enemies?...

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It wouldn't surprise me, either, if Earth had been building masses of new ships - after all, they would undoubtedly want to be ready for another assault if such a thing occurred.

One recommendation for the weapons of the capships of Earth - you know the missile batteries? Well, are not those missiles a little weaker than they could possibly be?

The other thing that surprises me greatly is the Meson Bomb. Sure, it wipes out everything in a three-kilometer radius, kinda like a nuclear bomb. But can we not build more powerful nuclear bombs today?
And do we need a bomb that enormous to make an explosion that large?

Missiles like that launched from capships could even prove to be the Earth equivalent of beam turrets. They don't need to be fission-based either; fusion bombs are MUCH more powerful. And the most likely material for fusion, helium, is plentiful in this system; we have, after all, got four gas giants.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Who wants to live in a location?
Posts: 146

There's one thing I was thinking about regarding Capella though. Obviously the Shivans wanted to do something to Capella for something - maybe, as has been mentioned, they were trying to open a jump node to some place really important, and they needed to destroy a star to do that. But not just any old star, or the Shivans would blow up something more accessible.

If they needed this one, one would wonder why they didn't come to Capella earlier - maybe the timing was just a coincidence?

A more realistic reason is that they had only noticed the path into Gamma Draconis, and hence the star, when the Trinity opened up the portal and jumped through. There is evidence that the Shivans were either already through the portal, or arrived there very quickly.

They also must have gathered the fleet of Sathanas juggernauts pretty quickly - unless they had them waiting for the star they needed. Possibly the juggernauts were especially made for this purpose, but you can't tell for sure.

Maybe they just realized that they could get to where they wanted by blowing this thing away? This would require two things, though, that may not be likely:

1) The Shivans would have to be able to 'think' very fast.
2) They would have to be able to build ships EXTREMELY fast. A fleet of 80 juggernauts in two weeks is some accomplishment.

Of course, if they were numerous enough, it wouldn't be such a problem.

We can only speculate why they would want to go wherever it was they were going (assuming, of course, that that was the purpose of their destruction of Capella anyway). What we can see is that it was important enough to lose billions of dollars of ships (in the GTVA's terms at least), and probably tens of thousands of crew. Again, we can't say how important it'd have to be before they did that.

------------------
-Sirius
D2 level design/robot design

"* {WC}Sirius is odd."

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: The Cold Northland!
Posts: 8392

I think its safe to say that the Shivans don't build Sathanas class vessels in two week or even six months (a more likely timescale than two weeks for FS2's story).

They most likely had those ships available beforehand and that the first ship to push to Capella was a "scout" and the rest were the main fleet.

Its also interesting to note that while the Shivans did have alot of forces in Capella, I don't think they had 100 destroyers or even 20 destroyers. Those 80 Juggernaughts were gathered for a reason and the rest of the Shivan fleet was elsewhere.

The Shivans are Mysterious Because:

- they have no identiable motive or method
- outside of Bosch and ETAK, they have not communicated with Terrans or Vasudans
- they have displayed very strange behavior on numerous occasions (the Tombaugh attack where the Shivans undoubtedly tracked the Taranis through subspace to the station or after the Lucifer was destroyed and all the remaining Shivans lost their fighting cohesion)
- they are not terrestrial at all and have no interest in planets (except homeworlds - they do understand the concept of planet, they don't seem to have a need for them)
- they have an affinitiy and a sensitivity for subspace that the Terrans and Vasudans lack (even with technology)

If those don't speak alien to you I don't know what is. They have alien thoughts, motives, they don't even live or have an interest in planets. Thats ALIEN

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: SUBANG JAYA, SELANGOR, MALAYSIA
Posts: 29

IceFire wrote:
In my opinion, the Shivans ARE truly alien. They are probably the most alien species in a science fiction series yet. We don't understand their motives, their reasons or their tactics. They are mysterious and they are deadly.

I'm a little tired from work so exscuse me if i'm a little off. For Shivans being truly alien, how do you define alien. If its difficult for you, then think about how a game designer - arguably people who are most influenced by pop-sci and not hardcore sci-fi, would even try to describe it. It would be truly refreshing for [v] to come up with a really alien concept for em. The more mysterious the better, I say.

I'm saying that the GTVA has the capability to shut Sol off from attack once again by collapsing the node.

If you read my previous overly lengthy post, you'd see I suggested that Shivans could open unstable jump nodes. I would not even try to suggest that when they say "collapsed node" they mean totally inaccessible (the ending of FS2 suggests that they may have the key to opening the Sol jn). That defeats the whole purpose of Knossos. If we are to suggest that the Shivans were superior to the Ancients then they would proly HAVE tech to open em collapsed nodes. So what if you shut a node, they'll re-open it.

to study and integrate that aspect of humans into their own collective

I was about to suggest the same thing. I agree whole heartedly. As with my suggestion that the Lucifer was only a expeditionary force and that the first Sathanas was about the same, it would tie in with the behaviour of Shivans thus far.

Some of their ships potentially have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years with little progress.

Very possible yet very unlikely at the same time. Given lots of free time, I doubt even a lazy ass like myself would sit on my hands doing nothing.

The ship that attacked the Ancients, be it the Lucifer or not, was shielded suggesting they had that technology 8,000 years before. Why hasn't it been improved and put on their other ships? Was the Lucifer a one of a kind ship?

This was a point I was pondering for a very long while, and it beats my arguments on Shivan progress. I THINK that the Shivans didnt get updated tech coz then we'd lose the war BADLY. And losing the game at the end is a considered bad by the designers. Either that or they didnt do their homework properly.


Ace wrote:
As stated earlier in this thread, before the Great War, the GTI had contact with Shivan technologies and systems for decades before.

I havent played them SOC campaigns. dammit, now to go find the time.

Yes, the GTVA may have technology that is now in many ways equivalent to that of the Shivans, but the alliance lacks the Shivans sheer resources. (as well as time in existance)

The question to ask is why haven't the Shivans advanced their technology over the millions of years of their being, is it because they've never needed to? ...more importantly what happens when the Shivan machine is driven to adapt to their new enemies?...

Same as IceFire's last comment. I think the writers didnt think of that logic loop.

DarkHorse wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me, either, if Earth had been building masses of new ships - after all, they would undoubtedly want to be ready for another assault if such a thing occurred.

Ace already killed this one. He noted that Earth was proly starved of resources. I hold this as true unless Earth found other jumpnodes to other systems.

One recommendation for the weapons of the capships of Earth - you know the missile batteries? Well, are not those missiles a little weaker than they could possibly be?

I killed this one myself. In support of Ace's notion that Earth will be low on resources, there will a great shift away from resource wasting weapons and tech - missiles are throwaway weapons in that you shoot one and there is no more unless there are reloads. Look at my proposals for potential Earth weapons in my third humongous post above.

The other thing that surprises me greatly is the Meson Bomb. Sure, it wipes out everything in a three-kilometer radius, kinda like a nuclear bomb. But can we not build more powerful nuclear bombs today?
And do we need a bomb that enormous to make an explosion that large?

I have been thinking about this one as well. It could be that, from Ace's listing of ship building materials, nuclear weapons do less damage against them. I believe again that its all pop-sci, they just gave a fancy name to a big nuke. But truthfully, if it were possible to destablize such a thing as a node, you'd need a pretty big boom.

I think that the potential kill radius of the Meson bomb should be much much much greater. Than its a worthy weapon of mass destruction. There is also another theory that the meson bomb is actually a weapon designed to disrupt magnetic fields. The big explosion is merely a side-effect. I'm a little too tired to give my full thought to this one ATM.

fission-based either; fusion bombs are MUCH more powerful

Really? just checking, anybody can second that? I cant seem to remember which one's more powerful.

And the most likely material for fusion, helium, is plentiful in this system; we have, after all, got four gas giants.

Hydrogen not helium, some helium is produced in the detonation of a fusion bomb/thermonuclear device. Fusion bombs are referred to as Hydrogen bombs or the H-bomb. The process of fusing two types of hydrogen isotopes - deuterium (hydrogen mass 2) and tritium (hydrogen mass 3), or something like that. I can explain the general process if I'm forced to.

The atomic bomb is a fision bomb, splitting heavy plutonium or uranium into lighter elements. Fision bombs are considered more "dirty" than Fusion bombs - more radioactive fallout.

The Neutron bomb is a form of fusion type bomb that creates little to no radiation but with the potential to kill most living things leaving buildings intact. What I'd like to see is the deployment of Neutron bombs against the Shivans. There is one more class of nuclear device - the Cobalt bomb or dirty bomb, it creates loads of light radioactive particles (good for killing planets).

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