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but hey, I'm new, laugh at me

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quote:

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The fact is, it would make a lot of people angry if Volition delayed the game 6+ months to implement an unnecessary feature such as co-op single player. Many people are looking to have this game before Christmas. [/B]

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Brush42,

So are you asking that these programmers and designers, who are getting paid and using that money to raise families...to just quit and take a huge financial risk and start their own company?

Try and see it from the human perspective. You have a job doing what you love to do and get paid for it. You have a family you love and want to support -- would you just walk away from the best financial alternative there is to take care of the people most important to you? For what? To pursue a vision of a game that's only marginally different than what you're already getting paid to do, just because it suits your tastes or the tastes of hardcore fans more?

It's gaming, guys. The devs are 9 to 5'ers (or 11pm, given the insane hours video game devs work) just like the rest of us, and they have to put food on their table too. Idealism is great, and some fantastic companies have risen from it, but far more have failed and I can't fault the [V] guys for sticking with a sure thing.

Last edited by ktwiles on 07-28-2002 at 08:17 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by rfII



2) And to whoever said that if Volition spends the time making coop available in RF2 there certainly wont be coop in RF3, why would they bother to implement coop in RF3 if people like you accept their bull **** escuses all the time?

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quote:

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I hope you are not speaking on volitions behalf with that statement.

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By 'you' I assume you are refering to 'me' (given that your post is right under mine). I never speak on Volition's behalf. I sometimes speak on behalf of my website (this one, the one your at) that I co-run with a number of others. The rest of the time, I speak for myself and myself alone.

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Volition has already stated those features would be great, and that had they been allotted the time and budget for those features they would implement them.

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Exactly my point.

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Second, Q3, SS, SS:SE, NWN, and several other games, and their companies have not made these real world excuses. So, really, shove your world concept back into your defensive brain.

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Quake 3 is barely a game and more of a technology. Its great fun, but it was designed to showcase their engine and maybe kickstart some online shooting more than anything else. I think ID spent at least two years working on it if not more and their big payoff was not with Quake 3 itself, but the licenses that they sold and thats the lucrative part about it. Plus, id has this wonderful reputation of pretty much starting and leading the FPS genre in the first place...so I'm betting that they more than likely had alot of power to dictate terms with Activision on when they would release it.

Not sure what SS and SS:SE are. NWN I assume to be Neverwinter Knights. A decidedly cool game (I gave it a shot at my cousins last weekend). I think it was in development for four years if im not mistaken. At least in one form or another. That has to be a bit over budget and that puts you into some queasy ground when it comes to developing a game. If the publisher really believes in it, then yeah it will go forward...but alot of times the game will die quietly before the masses know about it.

I think I'm also being totally misunderstood here. I'm just trying to provide an oposing viewpoint to alot of people who seem to criticise a development house for just trying to run a good business. Criticise and agree all you want, I'm just trying to show you alternative perspectives and I'm glad to see others on here doing the same.

This is the nature of debate. This is democracy. Point for point, proof for proof and then refutation. Its great

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ermmm.. Cant we just wait and see?? It's not a process we can controle. None of us can. But there is one thing we can do.. that's is understand what the facts are and accept them.

I'm sure of it that alot of ppl working for V and T want to get the PC-RF2 ready and played by us PC-ppl aswell. So let them do what they have to do to get us a better RF then we have now.

And if its not the gameplay you like... buy an other game. Simple.

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heh... brush, how much experience have you had developing large-scale games like RF, SS, NWN, Unreal/Tournament, Quake 3? Probably as much as I have --

NONE

Therefore I have learned to just accept it. Hey, maybe RF2 wont have all the features I want, but at least I'll get to play with all the other goodies that have been promised.

It seems to me that the ones complaining are "reviewing" the game before it's even previewed. It's sort of hard to pass judgement on an incomplete product, you know?

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Just to branch off of what Brando just said... I agree. Quit reviewing a game before you've EVER even played it.

Obviously most of you care enough about the first Red Faction game to even post on here, so there's a good chance that the second game will be great. From what I've heard it's killer.. and the multiplayer has been described to me as revolutionary on the scale that "Goldeneye" was on N64.

It's nice to provide feedback, but the game is already nearing the close of its development cycle, so there's really not much you can do right now anyway. (they finish the game up usually about 3 months before it ships, which means by the beginning of September, RF2 will probably done for the PS2).

Oh.. and RF2 hasn't only been worked on for a year. There were some people already working on RF2 when RF1 was being completed. They divide up the work so they can spread out among different teams, while still getting all the work done. At this point, the development cycle on RF2 is probably about 1 and a half to 2 years. Anyway.. yes.. it would probably take another 6 months to implement co-op right now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ktwiles


That was me. I'd suggest you take some reading comprehension classes or something, you missed my point.

RF2 needs to hit stores. Look what else is coming out -- James Bond, TimeSplitters II. As you can see with the PS2 in general hitting the market ahead of Xbox and GC, being available in in timely manner is CRITICAL to strong sales.

Without the strong sales, there won't be an RF3 AT ALL. Not just Co-op. I'm guessing that they're probably spending close to 10 million to make RF 2. That's expensive, and RF2 has to perform really well for them to make that back. Missing Christmas to put in a co-op campaign? Yeah, that'd be a GREAT business decision (/sarcasm).

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Last edited by rfII on 07-29-2002 at 02:27 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by rfII


Hey dumb ass,
This game is set to release October 23 acording to Gamespot. Thats about 10 weeks before Christmas. I understand releasing the game Christmas day doesn't really put it in time for the Christmas buying time. However that still means that Volition can spend a good month or two and still get in the Christmas buying time. Taking into acount that they spent about a year (year and a half according to Orange) making this game as of now, that means that the 1-2 extra months is 10-20% more time. [this isn't too complicated for you is it? (/no sarcasm)]

Also: So Timesplitters comes out a few weeks earlier? They wouldn't have had the same release date anyway.

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Last edited by ktwiles on 07-29-2002 at 04:09 AM

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What was that again? (/sarcasm)



"Every time you post, I'm going to make my running tally of what I think your IQ is one point lower."

Thats a good sentence. (-1 on IQ tally)


"Rather than buy 10000 copies of RF2 and 10000 copies of Game X, they will instead by 2000 copies of 10 different games and put them ALL on their shelves. "

You fail to account for the fact that, during the holidays, stores buy more stock. In both your scenarios the total stock is the same. (-1 on tally)

By the way, what "school" did you go to?

Last edited by rfII on 07-29-2002 at 04:23 AM

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face it rfII, he discusionally pwned you.

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not really if you read my post

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quote:

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Originally posted by rfII
not really if you read my post

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Last edited by ktwiles on 07-29-2002 at 01:36 PM

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BTW -- I'm typically not this hostile. But this thread was started as a straight up flame on the developers, and turned saucy when I was called a "dumbass" after putting only a mild sarcastic edge in one of my posts.

So if ppl want to get back to a more civilized debate, I'm all for it. And I'll stop being mean.

What I'd really like to find out about is why there is such a distinct sense of resentment about the choice to exclude co-operative play. We aren't dealing with a situation where [V] told us it would be in the game, or where THQ put it as a bullet point on the box or otherwise advertised it as having such. No one got cheated here -- we're being told straight up what the game does and doesn't have, and as consumers we have the power to either buy or not buy the game based on that and other knowledge. So why the hatred towards [V]? If the game isn't what you're looking for, are you still going to spend the 50 bucks even if you know up front that a feature you want isn't there? I think it's kind of cool they came right out and told us, "No, it's not in the game" rather than lead us on and pull a bait-and-switch with the hopes of increasing hype and sales forecast.

Last edited by ktwiles on 07-29-2002 at 06:23 AM

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quote:

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What I'd really like to find out about is why there is such a distinct sense of resentment about the choice to exclude co-operative play. We aren't dealing with a situation where [V] told us it would be in the game, or where THQ put it as a bullet point on the box or otherwise advertised it as having such.

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I think its become fashionable to attack the decisions of Volition at every opportunity and word the attack so that it looks like its a horrible injustice to humanity. Who knows

Good arguments have been spawned however

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WHY DONT WE ALL SHUT OUR PIEHOLES IN THIS MATTER !!

Dont see this dicussion going anywhere exept the wrong way....


Sorry for my bad English but I'm dutch.

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Don't blame THQ. Not doing Co-Op was our decision. We decided that, within our schedule and budget, we can't do Co-Op. Having made that decision, we aren't going to ask for more time or money to add something we decided not to add in the first place. Yes, the idea was tossed around quite a bit. But ultimately, the decision was made not to do it. We aren't going to add it now, sorry.

THQ owns us. Yes, we could all pack up and quit.. form our own company, and make games. We couldn't make Red Faction. We couldn't be called Volition. Let's not mention how difficult it is these days to start up a new game company and be as successful as we are right now. We don't want to leave THQ, hence the whole.. not leaving THQ thing.

In the end, making games isn't all about doing what you want. You make sacrifices in order to improve your game in other ways. Since Co-Op was never announced as being in RF2, we didn't sacrifice it, we just never planned it in the first place. We're still gonna have a killer game, just you wait.

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Well, thats all I wanted to know. At least thats not some "Its not our fault escuse".

Ktwilles or whaterver your name is (formerly the dumbass),
When clueless moms buy this game for their kids, do you think they will be more likely to understand cooperative play or enhanced geo-mod? You repeatedly stress the need to compete with games like Timesplitters which I believe does include co-op.
During the holidays, stores wouldn't cut down on buying of big name games (except possibly at stores like walmart). In you scenario all games have equal stock where in reality that is usually not true.

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Wow, this topic sure has progressed. I would like to make it clear that I have never once attacked or complained to volition about their product. Like I have stated, I play Red Faction every day still on the PC, and I am happy with the game the way it is. Extra bells and whistles are always nice, but I am happy with it.

My entire point is that Volition, as Todd has now come out and stated, is responsible for all the "missing" features that gamers are complaining about. It has nothign to do with a budget or a time line. It has to do with the product Volition wanted to make. They didn't want co-op, so they didn't request a time and budget schedual for that. It has nothing to do with THQ from this point on. It is all about what Volition wants to make and what Volition doesn't want to make. My entire post was in regards to my disgust as all the blame was on THQ and nothing was being done to change that situation. Now it is very clear that Volition is the one making the decisions, not THQ.

To ktwiles: Don't throw your education around like it has any weight in a debate or any other situation aside from getting a job. For the past thirty years our country has been run by men and women from Harvard, Stanfard, and many other "Big Name" universities. They have all still proven to be complete dumbasses when actually taking action in something. You are right about marketing, that is obvious, but it a thousand other people from community colleges can know just as much as you about it. If you're offended at being called a dumb ass, I don't blame you. But don't turn around and insult all the people in the world who can't afford a big name university because you are mad at one guy. That is pretty piss poor if you ask me.

In response to whoever said that Volition would be stupid to make a product they want and lose some financial security, I feel truly sorry for you. There was once a time in this world that people were ethical, and did what was right, made sacrifices for those beliefs, and ran a business that was quality and honest. Now everywhere I go, I see people leaving one business for another just to get another 5k a year in salary. What you are suggesting is that Volition make whatever product will sell, regardless of quality or intention, and take the consumers money without feeling a damn thing for them. I will tell you right now that anyone can provide for a family working at a fast food joint, and it's not about providing rather than doing something you beleive in. Get some ethics, or get out of my face.

Brando, I haven't reviewed RF2. I don't give a damn about it because it's not coming out for the PC. I only care about who Volition blames for gamers being whinney. Sorry if I gave you that impression.





Todd, thank you for the response and the clarification that Volition takes full responsibility for everything that is and is not in a Volition game, and that you have no quarrells with THQ, or the budget and time constraints that you both agree on. I hope you never use that as an excuse for not having something in a game that someone wants, when obviously, it's something Volition didn't want. Thank you for your time.

Eeryone else, I still respect and love Volition and Red Faction. I wish it were a bit longer, and that people still played it, or that there was support, but those are things I can't provide, and much less can't expect Volition to provide, whatever their reasons may be.

I hope THQ approves an RF2 PC port, I heard there were talks going on, and I will buy it if there is.

Sorry to be long winded, one last thing, so that I respond to everyone.

This is to IceFire: SS and SS:SE is Serious Sam and Serious Sam Second Edition. It won FPS game of the year, and a whole bunch of other awards. They spent four years on the engine, very little time on the game itself, much like ID with Q3, and also NWN was made in four years. The point is that they all made great games, pleased nearly every fan, have spawned off several other games, and have never once made an excuse for something missing or being done badly. Those are examples of games in the real world that have done what I expect every game maker to do, and only one has as much leverage as you claim, being ID, over thier distributer. They have managed to turn up in this harsh gaming world, and create a game that has become wildly popular and very profitable, all the while being very helpful with customers, and making the games in the highest of quality.

Thanks for your time and patience. And, again Todd, special thanks to you for taking the time out to read and reply. That is one quality that sets Volition above a great many groups. Bioware, ID, Croteam, and Volition has always involved thier production team on the boards to make sure the fans are heard. Thank you very much.

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