Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Chichester, United Kingdom
Posts: 189

I've just finished reading the starting comment, vengeance, and I a can honestly say it's not easy to balance playability and realism with fun.

First of all, just because some races are more advanced than others doesn't mean they're invulnerable. I must of watched ITB a half dozen times, and I always come back to the line that Sheridan said a almost half of the way through the episode:

I've never believed in the idea of an undefeatable enemy, sir. Any ship can be destroyed.

Secondly, I agree with your point on the use of a special missile type for taking out heavy capital ships. It seems inconcievable that the EA didn't have these forms of missiles in the Earth-Minbari War, considering even though they lost nearly every engagement, it shouldn't mean they would have been unable to destroy at least one capital ship with bombers.

Third, a Shadow Battlecrab's maneuverability may be explained by a comparison in last episode of Crusade (with the Drakh warships), that even though it can hold its own in a lengthy engagement, it is no more than a battlewagon, and that has a quicker recharge period for its jump engines, making it easier for the ship and it fighter compliment to jump in and out of ambush should the need arise.

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Last edited by Tiletron on 05-21-2002 at 07:48 PM

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Chichester, United Kingdom
Posts: 189

I've just finished reading the starting comment, vengeance, and I a can honestly say it's not easy to balance playability and realism with fun.

First of all, just because some races are more advanced than others doesn't mean they're invulnerable. I must of watched ITB a half dozen times, and I always come back to the line that Sheridan said a almost half of the way through the episode:

I've never believed in the idea of an undefeatable enemy, sir. Any ship can be destroyed.

Secondly, I agree with your point on the use of a special missile type for taking out heavy capital ships. It seems inconcievable that the EA didn't have these forms of missiles in the Earth-Minbari War, considering even though they lost nearly every engagement, it shouldn't mean they would have been unable to destroy at least one capital ship with bombers.

Third, a Shadow Battlecrab's maneuverability may be explained by a comparison in last episode of Crusade (with the Drakh warships), that even though it can hold its own in a lengthy engagement, it is no more than a battlewagon, and that has a quicker recharge period for its jump engines, making it easier for the ship and it fighter compliment to jump in and out of ambush should the need arise.

__________________
…though we are not now that’s strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven, that which we are, we are.

One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will, to strive, to seek, to find…and not to yield.

Tennyson.
-------------------------------------------------
[url=http://starwars-tpmtc.fateback.com/index.html]'Star Wars Phantom Menace TC'[/url] for Jedi Outcast (Co-Leader, Modeller, Webmaster)
[url=http://ja.ravencommunity.net]'Star Wars: Jedi Apprentice'[/url] for Jedi Outcast (Co-Leader, Modeller, Scriptwriter)
[url=http://www.ja.ravencommunity.net/lf/index.php]Forcefare Productions Network[/url] (Moderator, Co-Founder)
[url=http://www.greyfusion.net]GreyFusion[/url] (Moderator, Newshound)
[url=http://www.neocroncentral.net]NeocronCentral[/url] (Moderator, Newshound)

Last edited by Tiletron on 05-21-2002 at 07:48 PM

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: The Cold Northland!
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quote:

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Like I said, sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay. Surely I am not the only one who got bored with fly to waypoint-kill fighters-fly to waypoint-kill fighters-etc.

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Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:

---

Like I said, sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay. Surely I am not the only one who got bored with fly to waypoint-kill fighters-fly to waypoint-kill fighters-etc.

---

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Registered: Jul 2001
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Posts: 61

I have complete faith in the project and its developers, don't get me wrong - I still remember the feeling when the first demo loaded up and there was the interface screen with the messages from Earth music- fantastic - and then the first time I saw a jumpgate form and a Sharlin slide out - the team is awesome and I do not mean to criticize or whine. I just really want to take on a battlecrab, hear it shriek and dance around that red beam of incineration!

Glad to hear about the higher powered weaponry, though - time for the terrans to have some firepower for once!

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Registered: Jul 2001
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Posts: 61

I have complete faith in the project and its developers, don't get me wrong - I still remember the feeling when the first demo loaded up and there was the interface screen with the messages from Earth music- fantastic - and then the first time I saw a jumpgate form and a Sharlin slide out - the team is awesome and I do not mean to criticize or whine. I just really want to take on a battlecrab, hear it shriek and dance around that red beam of incineration!

Glad to hear about the higher powered weaponry, though - time for the terrans to have some firepower for once!

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: THE BEST DAMN ROGUE NATION ON EARTH!!!
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quote:

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Originally posted by vengeance
By the way, you would probably never speak so harshly to someone you had just met in real life. We are all on the same side here - we like this universe and we look forward to flying and fighting in it. [/B]

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Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:

---

Originally posted by vengeance
By the way, you would probably never speak so harshly to someone you had just met in real life. We are all on the same side here - we like this universe and we look forward to flying and fighting in it. [/B]

---

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Registered: May 2001
Location: Stelring, VA, USA
Posts: 212

Fighters Underpowered?

I was just thinking, in Severed Dreams, the scene of a couple of thunderbolts completely taking out a Hyperion, granted it is not a "Captital" ship (Compared to a Nova, or Centurion, and etc). With the Earth Minbarri war, tatical Nukes they had. You would think they would think of arming them on a fighter. But that would probibly be a one or two shot load. who knows. It is up to the staff.
Battlecrabs.... hell I don't think the player in a Auro or Badger should have much of a chance against the Shadow Fighters or Scout Craft.
What about the Fighters being responsible for Tactical Targeting, I remember a few missions for FS2 where you were in a nebula and had to TAG certain ships for the Capital Vessels to be able to lock on them with their guns. Woinder if this might be helpful in the scheme of things.
Lastly, (this is a quick off topic question) in order to modify the source code, knowledge of C++ is required? or is it another programming language like Lisp?

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Registered: May 2001
Location: Stelring, VA, USA
Posts: 212

Fighters Underpowered?

I was just thinking, in Severed Dreams, the scene of a couple of thunderbolts completely taking out a Hyperion, granted it is not a "Captital" ship (Compared to a Nova, or Centurion, and etc). With the Earth Minbarri war, tatical Nukes they had. You would think they would think of arming them on a fighter. But that would probibly be a one or two shot load. who knows. It is up to the staff.
Battlecrabs.... hell I don't think the player in a Auro or Badger should have much of a chance against the Shadow Fighters or Scout Craft.
What about the Fighters being responsible for Tactical Targeting, I remember a few missions for FS2 where you were in a nebula and had to TAG certain ships for the Capital Vessels to be able to lock on them with their guns. Woinder if this might be helpful in the scheme of things.
Lastly, (this is a quick off topic question) in order to modify the source code, knowledge of C++ is required? or is it another programming language like Lisp?

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Registered: Jul 2001
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Posts: 61

So the consensus is that the advanced races are too advanced to be properly integrated into the game. Where does that leave one of the best parts of the universe - the ultra-powered ancient ones? Are we going to be involved in a mission, then a battlecrab comes in and we all jump out? While that may make sense form a tactical viewpoint, it could get old fast. I think the use of telepath ships and tagging may be a good way to go. Any other suggestions? (Besides retreat).

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Registered: Dec 2001
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Look at it this way, having it so you can always win is cheap.

The universe just doesn't work that way. I would rather have it so that I have to run, and live to fight another day than have it so that I can always win with some dues ex machina super-weapon or a dumbed-down enemy. That way, when I just barely make it out, my heart's pumpin'.

Remember, a large part of the B5 arc, is thinking your way out of a lousy situation. Sheridan thought his way into a victory over the Black Star, and he thought his way out of the Shadow war. In the final analysis, it's not always who has the best toys that wins. It's who uses them most effectively and for the right reasons (so it doesn't bite them on the ass later). That was one of the main thrusts of the show. If the playing field is made so level, it would defeat the purpose of calling it a B5 game.

BTW, in severed dreams, the Tbolts did NOT destroy the Midwinter, (not a Hyperion, Midwinters have beams) they merely knocked out it's forward interceptors enabling the Alexander's aft batteries to strike the hull without being deflected. Sure they did some hull damage, but not enough to seriously compromise structural integrity. Further, the Hyperion/Midwinter is classed as a "Heavy Cruiser" it is most certainly a capital ship.

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Registered: Dec 2001
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Look at it this way, having it so you can always win is cheap.

The universe just doesn't work that way. I would rather have it so that I have to run, and live to fight another day than have it so that I can always win with some dues ex machina super-weapon or a dumbed-down enemy. That way, when I just barely make it out, my heart's pumpin'.

Remember, a large part of the B5 arc, is thinking your way out of a lousy situation. Sheridan thought his way into a victory over the Black Star, and he thought his way out of the Shadow war. In the final analysis, it's not always who has the best toys that wins. It's who uses them most effectively and for the right reasons (so it doesn't bite them on the ass later). That was one of the main thrusts of the show. If the playing field is made so level, it would defeat the purpose of calling it a B5 game.

BTW, in severed dreams, the Tbolts did NOT destroy the Midwinter, (not a Hyperion, Midwinters have beams) they merely knocked out it's forward interceptors enabling the Alexander's aft batteries to strike the hull without being deflected. Sure they did some hull damage, but not enough to seriously compromise structural integrity. Further, the Hyperion/Midwinter is classed as a "Heavy Cruiser" it is most certainly a capital ship.

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Registered: Mar 2001
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Posts: 194

You play freespace right? Remember the shivans? I don't see too much difference, they are a super powerful race that no other species can stop(when the shivans really start attacking).

You'll be able to kill shadows and vorlons, it'll just be very tough, and require capships for sure.

Mainly i think they'll be alot of shadow vs vorlon stuff happening to create cool mission atmosphere.

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Registered: Mar 2001
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Posts: 194

You play freespace right? Remember the shivans? I don't see too much difference, they are a super powerful race that no other species can stop(when the shivans really start attacking).

You'll be able to kill shadows and vorlons, it'll just be very tough, and require capships for sure.

Mainly i think they'll be alot of shadow vs vorlon stuff happening to create cool mission atmosphere.

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: THE BEST DAMN ROGUE NATION ON EARTH!!!
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Or in FS1 with no sheilds, no beams, no flak. Those few missions where just about the onlyy thing you could use on 'em were dumbfires- those were the days.

If I hadn't played it through last month I'd be tempted to install it for old times sake.

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: THE BEST DAMN ROGUE NATION ON EARTH!!!
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Or in FS1 with no sheilds, no beams, no flak. Those few missions where just about the onlyy thing you could use on 'em were dumbfires- those were the days.

If I hadn't played it through last month I'd be tempted to install it for old times sake.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Nottingham, England
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In "Shadow Dancing" although the Army of Light took two to one casualties they still killed a good number of Shadow vessels (judging by the number of AoL ships destroyed). It shows that given the right situation Shadow (and Vorlon) ships could be destroyed, even if the price is high - no different to the Earth-Minbari War. The fighters themselves are not uber-powerful either as even a ramming Frazi could take one out ("Matters of Honour"). I'm looking forward in a Shadow War campaign to a variety of missions as well, a mixture of retreat, kill one ship, use telepaths, spying, accidental contact in hyperspace, etc. giving a balanced and fun set of missions. Also, in such a campaign much of it would be spent with little intelligence data and having to fly "blind" into combat situations.

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Registered: Oct 2001
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In "Shadow Dancing" although the Army of Light took two to one casualties they still killed a good number of Shadow vessels (judging by the number of AoL ships destroyed). It shows that given the right situation Shadow (and Vorlon) ships could be destroyed, even if the price is high - no different to the Earth-Minbari War. The fighters themselves are not uber-powerful either as even a ramming Frazi could take one out ("Matters of Honour"). I'm looking forward in a Shadow War campaign to a variety of missions as well, a mixture of retreat, kill one ship, use telepaths, spying, accidental contact in hyperspace, etc. giving a balanced and fun set of missions. Also, in such a campaign much of it would be spent with little intelligence data and having to fly "blind" into combat situations.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1218

No ship In B5 is invulnerable. All younger races Cap ships can be damaged or destroyed by fighters sometimes with some sort of support.

Even against vorlon fighters you can be sucessfull, remenber that you can fly the T-bolt and with its rapid fire gun you have a good chance of hitting it and destroying it despite its superior speed and fire power. A shadow fighter would be easier as its gun has a slow fire rate, all you gatta do is being good in evasive action and when it cosses your gun sights... BOOOOOOM!
However I think their power will give an unique thrill to the game as you'll be forced to plan the best tactic when defending allied capships, your heart will pump harder.
I think even engaging their Cap ships could be donne, you could damage their subsystems so that bigger ships could take on them, possibly in numeric advantage (or the opposite when using telepaths). Like In Wing commander prophecy, you had to take on alien Cap ships in pre-emptive strikes so that they could be engaged, this adds startegy and eleminates repetitiveness of the game, less arcade feel.

About fighter mounted missiles, its cannon EA fighters and narn fighters carried them on some occasions. however their only efective against ships below minbari levels. As a torp would be zapped as you lawnched it with nasty consequences to you or your wing mates.

There was a season 1 ep that Narn fighters (were part of a mercenary squad) raided centauri assets, and when the debris were ispected it was found that the frazis used very powerfull heavy missiles on their targets. Also the raiders attacked B5 with missiles barrage too.

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