Registered: Aug 2000
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we could try, or we could wait for [V] to pull it off better than we ever could

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(whew! Finally a topic with serious theory discussion!)
What do you all think the connection is between the Shivans and nebulae?
I for one think that nebulae are to Shivans what ground and air are to Terrans and Vasudans. Leading to the theory that they blew up Capella in order to create a nebula as a forward base in GTVA space.
After all, the GTVA got the hang of blowing up subspace nodes to cut the Shivans off, so the Shivans decided to eliminate the need to rely on reinforcements coming from Shivan space and instead create their own reinforcements.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sandwich:
(whew! Finally a topic with serious theory discussion!)

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Sandwich, in order to understand the Shivans, you must think like them.

Now the fish in the pond theory is a start.

But one thing to remember, the Shivans are tens of thousands if not millions of years old, if they have learned one thing it's *patience*...

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Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Snipes:
BTW, I think it's more like Boct's idea of it being like a fishpond, with the ripple effect... Imagine, if a ship entering a nebula could attract the Shivans, imagine what a ship being destroyed must do...

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the anchents probly had some sort of shield tech as the terrans were experimenting with there own sheild tech at Ross 128 near the end of the TV war (don't beleve me, read the origonal tech description for the MX-52). maybe we got it from them though becase the GTI had advanced knowledge of them.

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That's right Bobboau, there was a deflector array prototype at Ross 128, and I due assume that it is due to the GTI's experiments with Shivans prior to the full incusrion in 2335.

The ancients from the monologues we do know did not have any shielding technology, nor weapons designed to combat shield systems.

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quote:

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Originally posted by boct1584:

Hey Snipes, I somehow don't remember where I posted that, do you?

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Maybe it wasn't you, and I just gave you credit for it...

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I don't recal anything that counts out shields, the closest I remember was something like "they were like the others... but they would not die", and in the last one "there shield technology does not work in subspace", but that doesn't prove they had no shields of there own
personaly I think the Anchents were radicaly more advanced than the GTVA, simply by how much olderthey seemed, and how many more races they had crushed, and the fact that they had covered there whole galixy. I also think the terrans were about to develop shields, becase it seems that the shivans always come at us with the same type of technology we have but raticaly advanced. as to prevent us from stealing it from them, and this theory wouldn't hold if the anchents didn't have some sort of shields, and I can't posably be wrong

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He's got a point, though he can't spell Ancient( )

But how much advanced were the Ancients? And what kind of species were they?


Another thing:

Bobboau's quote in there:

"They were like the others, but they would not die..."
Does that imply that there were other sentient species around with sheilding capabilities, or even space combat capabilities, that still were conquered by the Ancients? And when the Ancients got too confident in their abilities, the Shivans appeared out of nowhere and did to them what happened to the Vasudans on Vasuda Prime...

This is getting a bit deep guys, let's keep this going as long as possible...</seriousness over>

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Exactly as the man above said.

The GTI had contact with Shivan technology before even the V-T war began, the reason why Terran and Vasudan technology is so similar to that of the Shivans is because quite literally it *is* Shivan technology.

Vasudan technology is mainly based on either observed or stolen Terran devices, and vice versa, and with Shivan technology added to Terran weapons theory, and with the GTI's use of Shivan shielding in experiments, when the great war truly began they were quickly able to intergrate the technologies.

As I stated before, since the ancients did not have weaponry designed against shields, they did not have shielding technology.

The ancients were beyond the GTVA in that they had slightly more advanced sub-space capabilities.

Another assumption Bobboau that many make is that the ancients used fighters, bombers, and capital ships like the other races.

With their technology, and difference of tactics, they may have more than opted for corvettes in the true naval sense.

The V-T war began early in Terran and Vasudan space travel, there were no Orions, Fenrises, or even fighters save scout vessels and some basic colonial designs. The creation of carriers, and following Vasudan usage are based on past Terran war experience, and the Vasudans emulating their foes. (as well as analysis on Shivan tactics by the GTI)

Since the ancients had multiple conquests over time, they more than likely opted for a different form of tactics than Terrans or Vasudans.

On this, subject we also know that Terran and Vasudan capital ships utilize artificial gravity, the design of early V-T war ships would fit more with what you might see in a physics book, save the addition of a sub-space drive and some nuclear warhead bays.

More than likely with the war's initial economic boom, either the Terrans or Vasudans discovered this technology, and utilized it on their fleets. (I'd believe the Vasudans discovered it, since if Terrans were using carrier-fighter tactics the early war would be one sided)

With the new Vasudan armada, and their distinct advantages, the Terrans were forced to reply with the Fenris, and Orion designs.

This blow, and slow recovery more than likely was the cause of the war's length, and the Terrans regained the advantage in 2332, only to face even more Vasudan advancements.

There is nothing stating that the ancients even had artificial gravity technology.

Simply because the ancients existed 8,000 years ago does not mean they had any advanced technology, it simply means that their less advanced technology is 8,000 years old.

Now if any enclave of ancients survives to this day... then they *would* have extremely advanced technologies that would *just* be enough to survive against the full and constant onslaught of the Shivans they would face.

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Wow, Ace, you are so much smarter than I have given you credit for...


That does explain a hell of a lot in the GTVA space. Answers 90% of my questions, and once again leaves me speachless.


Now, explain one thing to me, what do you mean by the Ancients were more advanced in subspace? How much can you do in subspace besides travel between systems, and lose your shields?

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I based my asumptions that the Anchents (I can build'em but I can't spell'em) were vastly more advanced based on the fact that all examples of anchent technology, were superior to the Terran or vasudan counterparts, and the fact that they had concered many many other races, over a much larger teritory, but in the end they were crushed by the shivans.

but of coarse this is all just fictional, and we'll never realy know.

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Alright, well Bobboau as I've explained before their tech was designed for anti-non shielded ships.

If an ancient went against a GTVA ship without shielding, I'd bet my money on the ancient.

The technology the ancients have of sub-space Snipes is more advanced since they not only had Knossos technology, (designed to stablize natural nodes) but also sub-space tracking.

Now every jump made opens it's own N-dimensional corridor through sub-space. Until the tracking technology was discovered, no one could trace trajectories of jumps unless they knew the vessel's power output (in the case of artificial in-system jumps which required intrusive and time-consuming scans) or if they knew the node's end point in the case of natural in-system or inter-system nodes.

With sub-space tracking technology, not only can you discover a vessel's trajectory (since the technology measures the sub-space vibrations generated by the drive as it matches to open a node) but you can also discover the ship's corridor frequency and enter it's corridor. (this tactic was used of course against the Lucifer)

The Shivans from what we do know do not have Knossos devices despite them being in Derelict. (that part of the plot I did not suggest to Kellan and those folks )
instead as I've stated before, their drives allow travel through the most unstable natural nodes, which means that in-effect each Shivan ship is it's own Knossos device.

Shivans we also know do not have sub-space tracking technology, or they would utilize it in their tactics.

The Terrans and Vasudans adapting so rapidly to Shivan technology definately has caught them off-guard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ace:

The Terrans and Vasudans adapting so rapidly to Shivan technology definately has caught them off-guard.

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Alright, beam weaponry is a direct descendant of the scans on the Lucifer.

These same scans were used to build the Hades' weapons arrays and systems, and fortunately the beam aspects of the vessel's schematics remained.

The Vasudans were the first to refit their destroyers with beam weaponry, as well as to create the GVCv Sobeks due to the rapid economic recovery of the Vasudan people after 2339 when the Khonsu coup was over.

Older Terran vessels were refitted shortly before the forming of the GTVA in 2345, with the Colossus project invented by Khonsu approved, Vasudan engineers also assisted with the creation of the Hecate class destroyers which were to be the new backbone for the GTVA fleet.

This explains why Hecates look so Vasudan in nature, since many of their hull designs were infact under Vasudan contract.

The Deimos is a recent design, newly comissioned, in the time FS2 begins. The Deimos, unlike the Hecate, is a fully Terran design thanks to the economic recovery in the time between the GTVA's founding and the signing of BETAC.

Also, on your questions of Silent Threat, I would recommend playing it since it does explain much about the GTI and what it knew. Silent Threat does include Shivans and explains somewhat of their tactics.

Also on the ancients, their space was vast, and they destroyed countless races. The Vasudans were one of their experiments and were nearly destroyed by the Shivans for their being "contaminated" by the ancients.

The GTVA has barely even explored the space within the "official Volition node chart" so in the two dozen worlds, nearly all barren, found by the GTVA not finding another race, especially with the ruin left by the ancients, is very likely.

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[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 01-18-2001).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ace:

The Vasudans were one of their experiments and were nearly destroyed by the Shivans for their being "contaminated" by the ancients.

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Alright now you're putting me on the defensive again!

The ancients aren't genetically edited, but their culture was advanced through ancient's meddling. (i.e. their "rapid development" had something to do with oversight or they would have not survived the period as tribal nomads in such a hostile environ)

The ancients quickly taught the barely sentient Vasudans agriculture and the ability to gather drinkable water to better their chances of surviving the early period.

Now the Hecate's "colors" are more of the hues seen on Vasudan ships, this is due to the alloys, metallurgy, and hull structures being designed by a joint Terran-Vasudan committee.

The Iceni was built to Bosch's specifications, it was built to be a warship, and it was built in the Freedom spaceyards out of the available materials.

The Hecate though designed in joint, is thoroughly Terran, did Bosch not use ETAK because it was based on Shivan technology and Shivans were "the great destroyers?"

No, Bosch did use ETAK, because he had to for his plans, Bosch's forces also used Myrmidons and Ulysses fighters which are also hybrids.

Bosch may be against the Vasudan people, but with these examples, he is definately not against using their technology. (nor against using Shivan technology)

Returning to the Vasudans, my belief in the ancient's meddling is due to my working with James Moores on fleshing out their culture, now I just did some minor advisory work for Leader for the Shivans on the culture, don't blame me for the "Shivan Emporer" or magical swords

Now in this, I believe that the ancients meddled in an attempt to redeem themselves from the "cosmic destroyers" at the last moment. Due to the location of Vasuda Prime (as well as noting the amount of stable nodes in the system and in Vasudan space, signifying that Knossos devices have been used), and the assumption from the information given to us by Volition that their world is barely habitable by their own standards.

To back up the "last moment" theory, in the great war the Lucifer made a seemingly impossible jump between the flanks for the battle of Vasuda (that manuever cost the alliance the Galatea) the ancients may have destroyed the nodes between the Knossos nebula and Vasuda in order to buy time for their gambit, which failed.

Another note is that the ancients also shut down the Knossos to close the node, but were then destroyed too rapidly to be able to resecure it or move the device. The Knossos in Warzone also met a similar fate in that it was the gateway from the Vasudan region of space into areas closer to the ancient's empire. (wonder about that Terran type world in those systems?)

With the Vasudans also having prophecies of the Shivans, they clearly also have had contact with the ancients.

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Ok, you make a sh*tload of sense, but I, as always, have questions of what you say.

Why would the Ancients even bother with the Vasudans? I didn't quite catch that. If they wanted the space, why not just kill off the Vasudans? Or leave them to be killed off by nature? It's not very logical for a species which crushes all other races to preserve this one.

Maybe, and this is farfetched, they saw promise in the species and wanted to see how good they could battle, so they boosted them ahead a millenia or so, and before they could catch up to the Ancients, the Ancients found the Shivans, who, like Protoss in starcraft, had been further advanced, and had adapted sheiling from yet another species.

The scary thing would be if there was a species more powerful than even the Shivans.

One where 'We killed billions of them, but they kept coming, blackening our skies' would be more fitting.

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The Vasudans were at first being observed, then when the Shivans were encountered they attempted to "protect them."

The Vasudans were neolithic, barely sentient, they were no threat to the ancients and were probably thought of as animals for study.

After the ancients realised that the Shivans spared the Vasudans, a handful attempted to "meddle with" the Vasudans to give them a chance, and that handful felt even more fury from the Shivans.

I'm sorry that I forgot that bit from what I worked out with Moores

The Shivans have existed for millions of years trust me there is no race more powerful than them unless they existed before the Shivans, and in that case they've ascended beyond the need to intervene...

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[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 01-18-2001).]

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