Registered: Mar 2002
Location: A Coruña, Galicia, Spain
Posts: 40

Ok, maybe I'm going to be a little harsh on this topic. So, if in doubt, remember it's just a game, ok?

I'm evil, i know.

I have recently downloaded all the third party missions Ashrak gently hosts on his website. And I'm sorry to say that 90% of them are crap.

I'm sorry again, but I have no other name for missions that obviously haven't passed even one session of QA playtesting.

When you load a mission that has no title, has m1 for filename and, when you load it and realize it depicts the confusion that ended on the beginnning of the EA-Minbari war, find that ALL radio messages thought for like 15 minutes appear all at once...and then nothing more happens, although you put time compression on 4x and wait for 15 RT minutes...

When the player is left 20 minutes w/o doing anything at all except watching...

When you order all fighters to protect a mission-critical ship (like any responsible wing commander would do at the start of a mission) and then the fighter that triggers mission-critical events obeys that order, and then nothing happens...

When you notice that no one knows about variables on the event editor, but that the first thing peeps must learn is the "Special Explosion" dialog, because every single mission seems a session of very expensive fireworks that would make Gandalf ashamed...

When the designer forgets to beam-protect the player when he HAS to fight at zero-range of 3 Sharlins, but NEVER forgets issuing the beam-fire-all command to ALL ships at once, resulting on "very interesting" battles...

When every single mission suspiciously looks like a crappy rebuild of one of the 5 TBP official missions (the "protect the convoy evacuating station" type is incredibly popular)...

Well, I know at least I felt a little sad: what happened to imaginative missions like those that can be found at volition's FS2 archive?

I was going to post this yesterday, but waited 24 h so that I could write more calmed.

Don't missunderstand me: I appreciate people who like mission making and decides to share that hobby with the community. But several rules should be followed when doing this:


1-Don't release a mission before it is a final that has undergone minimal playtesting. NEVER, EVER release a mission that you haven't played before. When on doubt, email the mission to a couple of betatesters and use their feedback on taking your beta to a final state.

2- If you do a campaign, or a somewhat complicated mission, write the "grand scheme" before on paper. Don't write message and briefing text directly on the editor: use NOTEPAD with, say, Franke's music on the background, and write what you HONESTLY think is the best think you could write.

3-Don't be too ambitious. We all want to depict The Battle of Endor, but loading 10 Sharlins and 20 Novas and setting beam-free-all to 1 DOESN'T do the job. Capital ship battles must be orchestrated like on a ballet: beam X targes Y subsystem, ship Alpha flanks ship Beta, etc.
A battle with twice as many ships SHOULD take you twice as many time on missionmaking. Never, ever, clone a battle. (hint, hint )

4-Balance your mission. I hate having to put the game on Very Easy just because some designer didn't care about balancing and put 2 squadrons of Auroras against 5 of Nials, and the player is forced to fight at 800 metres of 2 Sharllins.
I hate getting bored because 4 squadrons of Auroras fight two Zephyrs at a time, too.

5- When using the Event Editor (remember, missions are done THERE, not on the main fred2 window), read what every command and var does. Make missions like a tree: branches and foliage (eye candy, malfunctioning subsystems, radio messages) come last. Don't put events as they come to your mind, write down your ideas if needed.


Well, I could go on forever, but I will ask the REAL mission designers out there to do it for me: I feel that lots of people want to do missions but don't know the process yet. Give your advice: that tiny release of 5 missions of the R1 shows how a mission-campaign should be; cool, but never chewing too much (do you use that expression?). As someone said a couple days ago, what makes a good mission are characters, story, and CLEVER action: that's the difference between Walker Texas Ranger and Empire Strikes Back.

Lady Rose's capaign (where the best TBP 3rd party missions are, what isn't that difficult ) showed effort and ideas, but failed on it's execution. I hope that you invest more time on your next capaign (a 20-missions campaign should take between 2 and 12 months to complete), or at least playtest it more next time. Still it had some exciting moments.

The best FS2 campaign I played is Derelict, and I'm sure most of you will agree. I understood the characters, the story was original, the action came when it was needed, the writing was above average, and it had those little things that FS2 was not designed for (like long patrols or nav buoy laying) fitting nicely onto the storyline (I remember when the player had to do a trip of 3 minutes, that a news report from EA appeared on the center of the screen).

That's what this is all about.

I started an ambitious campaign for FS2 a long time ago: only the writing of the story and the campaign code (mission linking)on paper took me a whole year, and that was even before I began learning the guts of event code. I did a couple of the most simple missions for personal playtesting (I would have never released them, as they weren't finished and I respect the time of others, and so, don't like to waste it).
I suppose it's the story of many missionmakers: I chewed too much, and began a project for a team, not a person. Now those Farlander Papers are somewhere under the mountain of books of my desktop, serving as Bantha fodder or something. Learn the lesson: better fully doing a mission that spawns a campaign that the other way around.

Also learn this: always try to do your best on every single work you begin, and keep that way until the end. 50% effort doesn't exist.







Now, I don't have the time for missionmaking right now, but I'd like to collaborate on a small project for October. Who knows, maybe my missions are crap only 50%





P.D. Understand this post as a good will attempt of improving mission making, and a request for Missionmaking advice to the people who knows how to do that.
It's what it is.

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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: A Coruña, Galicia, Spain
Posts: 40

Ok, maybe I'm going to be a little harsh on this topic. So, if in doubt, remember it's just a game, ok?

I'm evil, i know.

I have recently downloaded all the third party missions Ashrak gently hosts on his website. And I'm sorry to say that 90% of them are crap.

I'm sorry again, but I have no other name for missions that obviously haven't passed even one session of QA playtesting.

When you load a mission that has no title, has m1 for filename and, when you load it and realize it depicts the confusion that ended on the beginnning of the EA-Minbari war, find that ALL radio messages thought for like 15 minutes appear all at once...and then nothing more happens, although you put time compression on 4x and wait for 15 RT minutes...

When the player is left 20 minutes w/o doing anything at all except watching...

When you order all fighters to protect a mission-critical ship (like any responsible wing commander would do at the start of a mission) and then the fighter that triggers mission-critical events obeys that order, and then nothing happens...

When you notice that no one knows about variables on the event editor, but that the first thing peeps must learn is the "Special Explosion" dialog, because every single mission seems a session of very expensive fireworks that would make Gandalf ashamed...

When the designer forgets to beam-protect the player when he HAS to fight at zero-range of 3 Sharlins, but NEVER forgets issuing the beam-fire-all command to ALL ships at once, resulting on "very interesting" battles...

When every single mission suspiciously looks like a crappy rebuild of one of the 5 TBP official missions (the "protect the convoy evacuating station" type is incredibly popular)...

Well, I know at least I felt a little sad: what happened to imaginative missions like those that can be found at volition's FS2 archive?

I was going to post this yesterday, but waited 24 h so that I could write more calmed.

Don't missunderstand me: I appreciate people who like mission making and decides to share that hobby with the community. But several rules should be followed when doing this:


1-Don't release a mission before it is a final that has undergone minimal playtesting. NEVER, EVER release a mission that you haven't played before. When on doubt, email the mission to a couple of betatesters and use their feedback on taking your beta to a final state.

2- If you do a campaign, or a somewhat complicated mission, write the "grand scheme" before on paper. Don't write message and briefing text directly on the editor: use NOTEPAD with, say, Franke's music on the background, and write what you HONESTLY think is the best think you could write.

3-Don't be too ambitious. We all want to depict The Battle of Endor, but loading 10 Sharlins and 20 Novas and setting beam-free-all to 1 DOESN'T do the job. Capital ship battles must be orchestrated like on a ballet: beam X targes Y subsystem, ship Alpha flanks ship Beta, etc.
A battle with twice as many ships SHOULD take you twice as many time on missionmaking. Never, ever, clone a battle. (hint, hint )

4-Balance your mission. I hate having to put the game on Very Easy just because some designer didn't care about balancing and put 2 squadrons of Auroras against 5 of Nials, and the player is forced to fight at 800 metres of 2 Sharllins.
I hate getting bored because 4 squadrons of Auroras fight two Zephyrs at a time, too.

5- When using the Event Editor (remember, missions are done THERE, not on the main fred2 window), read what every command and var does. Make missions like a tree: branches and foliage (eye candy, malfunctioning subsystems, radio messages) come last. Don't put events as they come to your mind, write down your ideas if needed.


Well, I could go on forever, but I will ask the REAL mission designers out there to do it for me: I feel that lots of people want to do missions but don't know the process yet. Give your advice: that tiny release of 5 missions of the R1 shows how a mission-campaign should be; cool, but never chewing too much (do you use that expression?). As someone said a couple days ago, what makes a good mission are characters, story, and CLEVER action: that's the difference between Walker Texas Ranger and Empire Strikes Back.

Lady Rose's capaign (where the best TBP 3rd party missions are, what isn't that difficult ) showed effort and ideas, but failed on it's execution. I hope that you invest more time on your next capaign (a 20-missions campaign should take between 2 and 12 months to complete), or at least playtest it more next time. Still it had some exciting moments.

The best FS2 campaign I played is Derelict, and I'm sure most of you will agree. I understood the characters, the story was original, the action came when it was needed, the writing was above average, and it had those little things that FS2 was not designed for (like long patrols or nav buoy laying) fitting nicely onto the storyline (I remember when the player had to do a trip of 3 minutes, that a news report from EA appeared on the center of the screen).

That's what this is all about.

I started an ambitious campaign for FS2 a long time ago: only the writing of the story and the campaign code (mission linking)on paper took me a whole year, and that was even before I began learning the guts of event code. I did a couple of the most simple missions for personal playtesting (I would have never released them, as they weren't finished and I respect the time of others, and so, don't like to waste it).
I suppose it's the story of many missionmakers: I chewed too much, and began a project for a team, not a person. Now those Farlander Papers are somewhere under the mountain of books of my desktop, serving as Bantha fodder or something. Learn the lesson: better fully doing a mission that spawns a campaign that the other way around.

Also learn this: always try to do your best on every single work you begin, and keep that way until the end. 50% effort doesn't exist.







Now, I don't have the time for missionmaking right now, but I'd like to collaborate on a small project for October. Who knows, maybe my missions are crap only 50%





P.D. Understand this post as a good will attempt of improving mission making, and a request for Missionmaking advice to the people who knows how to do that.
It's what it is.

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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: A Coruña, Galicia, Spain
Posts: 40

This LONG post summarizes as:

-Never release a mission or campaign if you're not proud of your work, or think that the mission is under average.

-Ask when you don't know how to do something.

-Don't be too ambitious, it's more fun to play against 2 General AI Nials than 10 Dumb ones (same goes for capships).

-I'm no guru, and I've forgotten most of my Fred2 skillz, so no offense here to anyone.

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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: A Coruña, Galicia, Spain
Posts: 40

This LONG post summarizes as:

-Never release a mission or campaign if you're not proud of your work, or think that the mission is under average.

-Ask when you don't know how to do something.

-Don't be too ambitious, it's more fun to play against 2 General AI Nials than 10 Dumb ones (same goes for capships).

-I'm no guru, and I've forgotten most of my Fred2 skillz, so no offense here to anyone.

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Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 194

I'll take any rushed, not play tested, buggy, incomplete, unstable, or boring mission that any fredder can make.

In these times where there is nearly zero mission creating going on, be happy that you have anything to play.

__________________
Boot to the Kool

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Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 194

I'll take any rushed, not play tested, buggy, incomplete, unstable, or boring mission that any fredder can make.

In these times where there is nearly zero mission creating going on, be happy that you have anything to play.

__________________
Boot to the Kool

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 1901

All worthy points however and even if there are no missions, one should aspire to be the best possible.

I think the TBP team may decide to put together a small package in the interm. So you guys have some more stuff to play with.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: The Cold Northland!
Posts: 8392

All worthy points however and even if there are no missions, one should aspire to be the best possible.

I think the TBP team may decide to put together a small package in the interm. So you guys have some more stuff to play with.

__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA, United States
Posts: 1290

The mission I submitted to get on the development team last year is practically finished and is only awaiting a few final lines of voice acting. I apologize it's taken me so long to get anything out; that is my fault and not the team's.

I'd also like to say that it's great we have any fan missions at all. How many MODs can claim that they have their own fanbase willing to make missions and campaigns for them? How many MODs have been MODded themselves? Too few to count, I believe. While it's true that this is a total conversion with a readily available editor, it's still wonderful to see people taking such an interest in expanding the B5 universe. Keep up the hard work.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA, United States
Posts: 1290

The mission I submitted to get on the development team last year is practically finished and is only awaiting a few final lines of voice acting. I apologize it's taken me so long to get anything out; that is my fault and not the team's.

I'd also like to say that it's great we have any fan missions at all. How many MODs can claim that they have their own fanbase willing to make missions and campaigns for them? How many MODs have been MODded themselves? Too few to count, I believe. While it's true that this is a total conversion with a readily available editor, it's still wonderful to see people taking such an interest in expanding the B5 universe. Keep up the hard work.

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Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 189

And may I add something?

No one makes perfect missions when one is a newbie on mission designing and sometimes even those who know how to make complicated missions make poor missions.

It's a simple fact... no one can make always missions which pleases everyone. (Now I'm talking absolute crap here)

And second. When making missions to our mod, it has to be 'realistic' to the world of Babylon 5 and this one is very hard for me as I have seen the whole B5 series only once. So it is extremely hard for me to write campaigns for I have to remind myself all the time by looking at Lurker's Guide.

If you want to see what kind of crap I made at first, go to http://archives.volitionwatch.com and get 'The Enemy From the Past' campaign for Freespace 2.

__________________
Mauri "Darkblade" Majanoja

Mission designer - [url="http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon"]The Babylon Project[/url]

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Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Finland
Posts: 599

And may I add something?

No one makes perfect missions when one is a newbie on mission designing and sometimes even those who know how to make complicated missions make poor missions.

It's a simple fact... no one can make always missions which pleases everyone. (Now I'm talking absolute crap here)

And second. When making missions to our mod, it has to be 'realistic' to the world of Babylon 5 and this one is very hard for me as I have seen the whole B5 series only once. So it is extremely hard for me to write campaigns for I have to remind myself all the time by looking at Lurker's Guide.

If you want to see what kind of crap I made at first, go to http://archives.volitionwatch.com and get 'The Enemy From the Past' campaign for Freespace 2.

__________________
Mauri "Darkblade" Majanoja

"Damn it people, I'm the official party pooper, not a mission designer!"

Mission designer - [url="http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon"]Freespace 2 : The Babylon Project[/url]

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1470

I actually learnt Fred 2 through TBP and my first mission is up there (Breakthrough). Now I know that it's a bit "Battle of Endor" in style but I like to think that my other missions have improved and they have been extensively play tested too. All that said, the only way to get better is to make more missions and to put a lot of thought into them. I agree with Skullar's principle that scripting is virtually essential for a longer campaign and my campaign scripting skills are being refined as I do more. Basically:

Plan your mission/campaign well (in your head or on paper)
Think what you want from the mission
Don't be too ambitious as to what you can get in a single mission
Make the outcome of the mission player dependent
Use voice mission directives and make the objectives clear to the player
Have a thorough briefing and debriefing
Playtest the mission until it is right!

One thing to bear in mind with TBP missions is that there tends to be more capital ships in a given battle than in Freespace so balancing can be very tricky at times.

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1470

I actually learnt Fred 2 through TBP and my first mission is up there (Breakthrough). Now I know that it's a bit "Battle of Endor" in style but I like to think that my other missions have improved and they have been extensively play tested too. All that said, the only way to get better is to make more missions and to put a lot of thought into them. I agree with Skullar's principle that scripting is virtually essential for a longer campaign and my campaign scripting skills are being refined as I do more. Basically:

Plan your mission/campaign well (in your head or on paper)
Think what you want from the mission
Don't be too ambitious as to what you can get in a single mission
Make the outcome of the mission player dependent
Use voice mission directives and make the objectives clear to the player
Have a thorough briefing and debriefing
Playtest the mission until it is right!

One thing to bear in mind with TBP missions is that there tends to be more capital ships in a given battle than in Freespace so balancing can be very tricky at times.

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

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Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Command deck of EAS Janus
Posts: 1755

Before I made that campaign it was half to one year when I last used FRED2... My skills was then and now quite frozen and innovations are in low.

Its is quite fusturating to make 37 missions for campaign and lose them with one blow...

__________________
"Losing your temper is sign of worries or panic"
-Shogun Tokugawa

Aku. Soku. Zan.
-The wolves of Mibu, Shinsen gumi

Creator of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/miburo1]Tale of EAS Janus[/URL] campaign
Also leader of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/]Honor of Omega[/URL] campaign
FREDer and general errant boy of mighty [URL=http://http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/]Mind Games[/URL], which power no-one can escape. There is always a first time.

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Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Command deck of EAS Janus
Posts: 1755

Before I made that campaign it was half to one year when I last used FRED2... My skills was then and now quite frozen and innovations are in low.

Its is quite fusturating to make 37 missions for campaign and lose them with one blow...

__________________
"Losing your temper is sign of worries or panic"
-Shogun Tokugawa

Aku. Soku. Zan.
-The wolves of Mibu, Shinsen gumi

Creator of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/miburo1]Tale of EAS Janus[/URL] campaign
Also leader of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/]Honor of Omega[/URL] campaign
FREDer and general errant boy of mighty [URL=http://http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/]Mind Games[/URL], which power no-one can escape. There is always a first time.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1470

I think that all of the people making missions for TBP are really waiting for the next release of EA ships and perhaps even the Narn and Centauri ships. Rest assured that the desire of the TBP mission creators will be rejuvenated when each new release appears

The original criticisms are fair enough and also useful to keep us on our toes (even if our egos are bruised at first)

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Nottingham, England
Posts: 1470

I think that all of the people making missions for TBP are really waiting for the next release of EA ships and perhaps even the Narn and Centauri ships. Rest assured that the desire of the TBP mission creators will be rejuvenated when each new release appears

The original criticisms are fair enough and also useful to keep us on our toes (even if our egos are bruised at first)

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Joutsa, Finland
Posts: 564

Triggy is right. How in hell can one make good missions when one has only handful of ships to use. Many times I sit in front of my computer (FRED2 open ofcourse), or by the window with a pen and paper, just waiting for inspiration, waiting for the spark that would ignite the fire. But nothing! Because I don't have the ships I need. And if I come up with something, I realize I have to wait for the release 2.
And since I am not very interested on FS-B5 crossovers, I'm nearing a mental breakdown ( )

__________________
"I'm not saying anything. I didn't say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now." -Dukath

FREDer for [url=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/index.htm]Honour of Omega[/url]
Creator of Movements in the Mist campaign

Oh ****! Those idiots did it.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Joutsa, Finland
Posts: 564

Triggy is right. How in hell can one make good missions when one has only handful of ships to use. Many times I sit in front of my computer (FRED2 open ofcourse), or by the window with a pen and paper, just waiting for inspiration, waiting for the spark that would ignite the fire. But nothing! Because I don't have the ships I need. And if I come up with something, I realize I have to wait for the release 2.
And since I am not very interested on FS-B5 crossovers, I'm nearing a mental breakdown ( )

__________________
"I'm not saying anything. I didn't say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now." -Dukath

FREDer for [url=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/index.htm]Honour of Omega[/url]
Creator of Movements in the Mist campaign

Oh ****! Those idiots did it.

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