Registered: Jul 2002
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No Co-op is INEXCUSABLE!

Co-op play is in many of the best FPS like Halo. It also greatly increases the fun level for not-so-good games. Why the hell did Volition decide not to include co-op in Red Faction 2? This game seems perfect for a co-op mode since it is boasted that you play a a member of an elite squad; so why not just change one of the computer controlled allies into a human controlled one for co-op? Or maybe an additional member can be added to the group for co-op. Really it doesn't even have to make much sense; Twisted Metal Black's co-op doesn't make sense in relation to the story but nobody really cares because it is so much fun.

Volition is just LAZY or GREEDY. They just want to release the game as soon as possible so they can get their money sooner. There is no justification for an absence of co-op.

We should bug the devs at Volition *NOW* before they go too deep into development.

Last edited by rfII on 07-24-2002 at 09:06 PM

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how do you know that there is no co-op mode in RF2 (which isn't completed)? do you work at V?

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says so here at the official page http://www.redfaction2.com/faq.cfm

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O SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE.

That sort of posting has done more wrong then any good.

I WANT, I WANT, I WANT and I DEMAND.

Grow up. And let those peeps do their jobs the way they have to do it.

If you dont like that .....start your own Game Company.

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quote:

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There is no justification for an absence of co-op.

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Hey Icefire,

I think Timesplitters has co-op and no such performance problems.

Draw distance can also be limited to reduce on screen polys.

Enemies stats can be boosted so that it take more hits to kill them or they move faster. These are fairly easy modifications that wouldn't cause performance problems. In many FPS's there are different dificulty levels that use these sort of stat changes.

Or it's easier... who cares?

Regarding trap doors, maybe there are some in the game, maybe there aren't. Why don't we ask?


Coop mode isn't impossible, it just takes a little more work.

Last edited by trexball on 07-25-2002 at 03:46 AM

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what was the point in starting this thread?

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the squeeky wheel gets the grease

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brando
what was the point in starting this thread?

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Cooperative play is great. Do you guys against it have no friends to play with or what?

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quote:

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Coop mode isn't impossible, it just takes a little more work.

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So?? Enough work has to be done to get RF2. Maybe already to much And you are discussing " Why not Co-op play?"

quote:

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Cooperative play is great. Do you guys against it have no friends to play with or what?

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uhhhh? Friends?? What are those??....

Last edited by Claire Claws on 07-25-2002 at 07:54 AM

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Co-op is awesome.....against herds of monsters....like in Serious Sam and Second Encounter....I just don't see the point of it in RF2.

And no....I don't have any friends...they all left me when I got off the "I have Volition" bus.

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Yea Co-op is fun, but its not as simple as throwing in another camera and splitting the screen. Game develoment ain't magic. There are things called "budgets" and "schedules" which we must adhere to. This can, sometimes, dictate what features are or aren't in a game. This is one of those cases. Yea Co-op would be nice, but we can still make a great game without it. We don't have time or resources for something, so lets not do this, or not do that. Multiplayer is quite a lot of fun, I think if people just have fun with what's there, they will have just as much fun with multi as they would with a theoretical co-op mode.

Also, FWIW, we are too deep into development to add it in now

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quote:

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Originally posted by rfII

Volition is just LAZY or GREEDY. They just want to release the game as soon as possible so they can get their money sooner. There is no justification for an absence of co-op.

We should bug the devs at Volition *NOW* before they go too deep into development.

---

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I respect Volition a whole bunch, however Todd, I am getting tired of hearing this budget and time schedual bull ****. I know it's true, but you are in a business and you are supposed to take care of yourself. Bioware dropped it's producer or whatever THQ is to you, because they weren't being fair, and weer destroying a product rather than making it good. Perhaps you should look into that as well. I want the game, but this is twice now that the "will" of volition has been undermined by the "demands and restrictions" of THQ.

Seriously, other companies never have such excuses or complaints because they take care of thier needs by going through the best companies. If THQ is being that demanding, then you need to find a new distributer. I don't mean to sound harsh. I love Red Faction, and I think that team play for Red Faction, or Red Faction two would be amazing. Patches and support for the game would be amazing. A PC conversion for the game would be amazing. BUt the plain fact is, if you're not part os the solution, you're part of the problem, and as long as you stick with THQ, I have no sympathy for the restriction you have.

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and for all you nit pickers who will want to tear me down for saying one thing negative about volition, I meant co-op for team play, and generally anything that should have been easily ported over to multi player side including turretts, vehicles, cameras, and triggers.

I don't mean to say Red Faction is a bad game, I just mean to say that having too small a budget and time frame for both the first and second release to add the features that you would love to add is unacceptable. It has nothing to do with what is good in a game or not. You have already stated that co-op would be great. You have stated vehicles and turretts would be great, so it's not a question of why they don't belong, but why you're not getting them in there. If the reason is simply THQ then you need to address that problem, or stand by THQ and say "we at volition do not wish to spend the time or the money adding those features." That is what you're doing without saying it, so you might as well have some pride in it.

sorry again.

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Brush, THQ owns Volition. Volition can't simply just pack up and leave. (nor would it be a smart thing for them to do at all, they're much more financially secure and successful with THQ).

Also, it's probably not really an issue of budget, at all, it's an issue of time. They're not going to hire a bunch of new programmers and level designers at the end of a project to implement co-op because the rest of the team is busy working on things like multiplayer maps or finalizing other things. It wouldn't make sense and it would be nearly impossible to do too (the new programmers would take weeks and months to get used to the game).

The fact is, it would make a lot of people angry if Volition delayed the game 6+ months to implement an unnecessary feature such as co-op single player. Many people are looking to have this game before Christmas.

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quote:

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I am getting tired of hearing this budget and time schedual bull ****. I know it's true, but you are in a business and you are supposed to take care of yourself.

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As Orange already mentioned, THQ owns Volition. Volition is just an externally owned development house which gives it some independance from the internal teams within THQ. So this isn't a Bioware/Interplay kind of deal, this is very much different.

quote:

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Seriously, other companies never have such excuses or complaints because they take care of thier needs by going through the best companies. If THQ is being that demanding, then you need to find a new distributer.

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EVERY other company makes these "excuses". Lets look at the people developing UT2003, they have had to push back their release date a bunch of times just to deliver what they initially had promised. Volition so far has not had to do that with RF2. Descent 3 decided to cut back on some things so that they could ship the best of what they had on time and it was an ejoyable experience for just about everyone. This bull**** your talking about is called the real world and so far you're only criticising Volition on an issue that they are tring to be candid about instead of burring it under PR magic wiz bang kind of stuff.

The problem with this argument in general is twofold:

1) A demand rather than a request. I personally get rather annoyed when people demand anything of me. I would think it the same for everyone else. For instance: I theoretically could demand that everyone stop making demands.

2) Lack of understanding, experience, whatever for how the entertainment industry works and what goes into making games. Until you look under the hood and try and understand their point of view as well as your own, you really can't properly complain about time and money bull**** as it was so coined.

Co-op would be cool. I agree with you every step of the way there, but there are reasons why it probably won't happen.

quote:

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Hey Icefire,

I think Timesplitters has co-op and no such performance problems.

Draw distance can also be limited to reduce on screen polys.

Enemies stats can be boosted so that it take more hits to kill them or they move faster. These are fairly easy modifications that wouldn't cause performance problems. In many FPS's there are different dificulty levels that use these sort of stat changes.

---

Correct me if im wrong, but Timesplitters didn't have any seriously revolutionary graphics or geometry systems and it was a fairly standard FPS affair. So no problem, co-op mode here we come...no issues to confront.

Draw distance reduction is kind of a silly solution in my book. But yeah, you could do it. At the risk of disrupting somekind of gameplay element or another.

Yeah, enemy stats can be boosted. I never said they couldn't. But there are issues inside of that (how much? what happens if the players are in two places instead of one?) that would have to be considered. Not impossible...I was just proving that there are reasons why not to do it.

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I hope you are not speaking on volitions behalf with that statement. Volition has already stated those features would be great, and that had they been allotted the time and budget for those features they would implement them. I don't understand what you're saying. Either they agree with THQ on the restrictions and the game they are producing, or they don't. It can't be both, and volition has already publicly placed the blame on THQ.

As far as picking up and leaving, THQ doesn't own the brains of the programmers and designers. Only the name, and Volition could go elsewhere. This isn't a matter of surprise restictions anymore. This is the second game they have made under the excuse of not having the time or money. Maybe they should just say "We don't like or want those features, and if you can't live with that then go away." Personally, I don't mind the absence of co-op or turretts or vehicles or triggers. I would love for them to be in, but I still play RF religiously without them. I am just saying I am tired of hearing all the blame placed on THQ when there is still a choice. Volition has beat around the bush on all the things to be included or excluded in thier games to avoid losing potential customers, and then when everything is finally revealed, it's all THQ's fault. I don't think so.

As far as making customers mad, I don't think you could make many more gamers mad than you already have Volition. You created a game, bragged about it's innovation, it's genious, and then it is dropped, and no longer supported. If it truly is the budget and the time frame, then you knew well in advance you would not be able to handle what you were claiming and that is just as bad as placing the time restraints yourself.

I love Red Faction, and I think Volition AND THQ for creating the game and releasing it. However, it distrubs me when a company blames their owner for their short commings, when it has just as much to do with them as it does with their owner.

And on a side note, about financial security, if Volition is just making these games to make money, and not release a product that people will want, use, and enjoy, then to hell with them. I don't give a damn about financial security. Buying a game they produce just because they want money is just like donating forty dollars to their cause. It's not ethical to make something purely for money, and it sure as hell isn't ethical to blame your owner when you helped in the deception. Sorry, but this is all true, un-denyable, and shameful.

I love Red Faction, I think I will play some now. I just wish I didn't have to listen to the customers bitch at a figure that "can't" do anything, and the production team make excuses that their owner is the big bad guy. I have never started a thread, or ridiculed Volition until today, and it's just because it is insulting to see the wool continually being pulled down.

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First of all, I haven't demanded anything of Volition, just stated my opinion of their excuses concerning the product I paid for.

Second, Q3, SS, SS:SE, NWN, and several other games, and their companies have not made these real world excuses. So, really, shove your world concept back into your defensive brain.

Third, I understand the delima, and I understand why Volition can't make the game better. I just don't agree with the continued practice of working with THQ or developing games that have not met the advertised standards.

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