Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1218

Ok I see that there was an interesting discussion abou this on anthoer topic lets develope it here.

Some have mentioned the america had The f-22 as a super-plane unrivaled in the world. This is not true, I have studied the eurofighter and its only real disavantage is the stealthiness, not being as optimezed as the f-22, however is is very agile so if both planes would fight at close range it would be the best pilot to win.
Actualy the Eurofighter has a much better thrust/weight ratiotha the Su-27 series.
The F-22 has a disavantage that not many people are aware of, its missile arsenal. the Eurofighter will carry meteor missiles wich have twice the range of the AMRAAM. By the time eurofigher enters service with the meteor, the Us couterpart will have an relatively old air-to-air arsenal and on top of that theres no intention to arm the f22 with something newer than AIM-9x and AIM120-AMRAAM/C for many years yet.The eurofighter has a comparable sensor capabilty to the f22, and in greater nunbers than the f-22.

As for marine deadliness and armed forces capability experience and operatianlity, I think israel is the best in the world. Their wars agains their neighbors proves this point. Out numbered and out gunned, but not outclassed, they gave a beating to all their adversaries at the same time. And we only see the tip of the iceberg since the real scores and armed forces operations are kept in tight secret.

The british armed forces are unbalanced. Its navy is overstreched and cant provide a credible mobile aerial platform thats why their desperatly seeking out for new carriers and planes to enbark them. They do have a strong fighter bomber force the best in europe. But air defense is practicaly non exitent comparing to the size of the rest of the air force. Theres only 18 tornados F3 to defend UK against enemy air superiority fighters, and it cannot compete with an F-16, this will change with the introduction of the eurofighter.

As for canada well its relatevly well armed but too small for a country as big as that. 78 f-18 hornets is not enough to my view. They cant even cover their coast line... too few P3 orions.

As for brazil... this a big paradox, a country with the largest space program and aeronautical industry in the south hemisphere has a slow dying airforce. They chose the worst plane possible to defend they immense territory, the F-5! The other type in service is the AMX (83 of them) as a light attack fighter bomber. The navy aquired an aircraft carrier... (yay!!)... armed with A-4 skyhawks!! theres no credible defense against sub attacks.

As for my coutry, Portugal (oi amigão brazileiro Capt west)
It may apear small puny insignificant and is most of the time ignored by many, we have only 45 F-16 3 bad ass frigates (the othres are realatevely old) 6 P3 orions and 3 subs and soon will count with 3 more cruise missile capable subs a new 160 m long multifuntion ship with a hanger for 18 aircraft and a complete air-to air and sub defenses, anti-nuclear chemical capability capable of carrying 1500 troops and a garage to carry tanks and anphibious assault ships will serve as an logistics, commant and paked mini task force for future nato operations and scenarios as those in east timor. Our military leaders call it ''the smallest aircraftcarrier in the world''
We have competed against many the best armed countries in exercises (but also in wars) and are known as the best improvisors in the world and feared by american military in exercises and known as pain-in-the-ass-american-aircraft-carrier-captain-disgracers. our navy have specialized in fooling top-notch american anti-sub hardware and managed to simulate attack on amereican carriers on several occasions. We have extensive combat experience since the massive african wars in the 70's were we deployed a total of almost 500000 troops in three different countryies, angola mozambique nad Guinea(almos as many as american troops in the gulf war). But our greates weapon is the sphere of influence we have. We brought down indonesia after yers of diplomatic and political pressure, they spent most of the time trying to remenber us how small we were, but they underestimated our resolve and ended up in a crippling crisis that caused most of its present problems, social and political unrest not to mention our influence on our allies took its economical power to its nees. beat that!!

Last edited by haderak on 08-15-2001 at 11:32 PM

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Estonia
Posts: 650

heh...
Estonia has got 2 SAAB(swedeish) fighters...I don't think they even use missles. Hell do we even have pilots???
5 choppers =) (all of them made in russia I think)
0 tanks (as far as I know)
we got several ships but most of them are mine finders....
Our troops are quite good(we kiked soviet butt in WWI wen't all the way to moscow...but the war ended when we got there )

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: New York State
Posts: 12

As for some posts in the other thread...

US Marines are not "Army grunts who learned how to come ashore" They are a speacialized unit of the US Navy. Always have been. Always will be. Hence the name "Marine" They have all the equipment of all the branches of the US Military and special forces training to boot. But they have something alot of other military units don't. An undaunted spirit and a tradition that has remained untainted and pure throughout thier time as an organization. No other unit in the US military can compare to the Marines. None. And a Marine would tell you that no other military in the world could. Since I'm not a Marine I won't say that. I would say that as in the time of the decline of Rome we in the US have become complacent and arrogant and I fear for our nation. As for military power there are plenty of nations who have been succesful in wars and have more battle ready and tested troops than us. We do have the greatest technology and still could kick most of the worlds butt in sheer stomping power. And we are a nuclear power which has it's benefits.... although we have ball-less leaders who wouldn't use that power to save thier lives, I doubt very much there is a power in the world that could beat us if it were total war as in the days of WWII... But since those days are gone.... who knows? Anyway I come here to read about a great MOD for B5 not debate foriegn policy and have a pissing match with brethren from around the world....

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Z'ha'dum
Posts: 186

Ive seen the Eurofighter,manuverable little bird, Delta wing I belive. But stiil I cant outmanuver the F-22. The F-22 has the thrust-vectoing(the only other plane Ive seen with it is russian)which adds another element to dogfighting,optical illusion.It could fly in one direction and point in another the opposing pilot wont know which way its going. The meteor missiles wont really matter if it cant track the plane(the radar signature is as small as a bird).The computer incorperated on this bird is the fastest in the world(10.5 billion computations per secound).And its Pratt-Whitney engines produse 35,000 pound of thrust per engine,more than most modern bombers. One more thing the F-22 is the worlds current record holder for speed and agility(and something else, maybee stealth because it can shoot you down before you knew it was there!)Like to discuss an other military aspect?

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Registered: Aug 2001
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Thrust vectoring has been around for quite a while, actually. Since the early 1960's when Hawker Siddeley of the UK introduced a little demostrator plane called the P.1127 (which, with a few modifactions to the design, would become the Harrier...). The thrust-vectoring capability was used to great effect by Sea Harriers of the Royal Navy in the Falklands conflict in 1982, where they shot down 28 Argentine aircraft without loss in air-to-air combat.

Russia also had front-line combat thrust-vectoring aircraft with it's version of the Harrier, the Yak-38 Forger. It's thrust-vector capability was less efficient than that the Harrier's. The main turbojet engine had two adjustable nozzles to the rear of the plane, as well as two small turbojets at the front, which were mounted vertically (the Harrier directs it's thrust from four small nozzles on the sides of it's fuselage, from one engine). The Yak-38 has been retired from service for some time now, and it's replacement, the Yak-141, which used the same basic priniciple as the Forger.

And the Russian plane that zubafoo is talking about is most likely the Sukhoi Su-37, a advanced model of the Su-27 Flanker. And it's thrust vectoring system is actually a bit more advanced that the Raptor's. The F-22 is capable of vectoring it's exhaust up or down, and that's it. The Su-37 can vector it's nozzles in virtually any direction, which permits it to perform maneuvers that (so far) cannot be matched by any Western fighter (as of yet). And the Su-37's thrust-vector system is already in front line use with the Indian Air Force, which uses the Su-30MKI, a two-seat fighter-bomber model of the Flanker.

Zoobafoo is also probably right about the Meteor, which I HIGHLY doubt will ever be trained on an F-22 in anger (even for comparison purposes, what's the point of trying to take out a friendly plane?). The U.S. Navy and Iranian Air Force are the only armed forces that I know of that has used long-range missile-capable fighters (both have the F-14 Tomcat). There isn't much info available on Iranian Tomcats, other than most are grounded because they have little or no clue on how to service them, and the five aircraft shot down by U.S. Navy Tomcats have used the Sidewinder and Sparrow AAMs; no Phoenixs have been used in anger by the Navy. Also, the Meteor is still a while away from entering service, and when it enters service, it will also utilize the AMRAAM.

Zoobafoo, from what I've looked up, the only record the Raptor has currently broken, is that of being the most expensive fighter in the world, at around $100 million a pop. That's over 3 times as much as an F-15E, and 4 times as much as an F-16C. For all-out top speed in a combat aircraft, that record is still held by the MiG-25 Foxbat, and in rate of climb, the Su-27 holds the current record from 0-12000m, while the F-15 holds the 15000m and 20000m records, and again, the MiG-25 holds the 25000m and 35000m records.

haderak, you might want to find other sources on where you get your military sources; some of them are way off, especially on the numbers of the Tornado F.3.

I also have some pretty good links on air forces of their aircraft...


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/

This is a great guide on military forces, on basically anything you want or need to know about military forces, from clothing to nuclear weapons. And it's free (for now....)

http://www.airforce-technology.com/

Pretty good site on combat aircraft in service (or will be in service...) around the world.

http://mylima.com/airforce/

Just found this site, it covers virtually EVERY military air arm in the world.

Last edited by Void on 08-16-2001 at 03:55 AM

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Z'ha'dum
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The Su-37 only has TWO-DIMENTIONAL vectoring,up and down,the raptor CAN out manuver it!The raptor HAS broken the record for manuverability,and as for speed its one of a few that can do supersonic crusie w/o afterburnes!

Void YOU might want to read the information istead of look at pictures!

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Registered: Aug 2001
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Actually, you were right about the Su-37's TVC; it is indeed capable of only 2D-vectoring (though 3D-nozzles are in development for it, I probably confused one sentence for another....). Still, I have doubts on whether the Raptor will be capable of matching such manuvers as shown in this video (I'm not saying it can't, but I have yet to see any videos of a Raptor performing such manuevers as these.)

http://www.haulingiron.com/files/video/su37.mpg


As for your so-called 'record for maneuverability', last time I checked (which was a couple of minutes ago), the FAI (the world agency that records such records, think of them as the Guiness of aviation) has no such category.

As for speed, I'm well aware of the Raptor's supercruise capability, but when you said 'record holder for speed' , I assumed you were talking top speed or rate of climb, forwhich the Raptor do not hold any such records.

Last edited by Void on 08-16-2001 at 05:53 AM

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Estonia
Posts: 263

quote:

---

Originally posted by Driller
heh...
Estonia has got 2 SAAB(swedeish) fighters...I don't think they even use missles. Hell do we even have pilots???
5 choppers =) (all of them made in russia I think)
0 tanks (as far as I know)
we got several ships but most of them are mine finders....
Our troops are quite good(we kiked soviet butt in WWI wen't all the way to moscow...but the war ended when we got there )

---

Actualy estonia does not have Saab fighters. Our airforce consists of few training planes and some rescue choppers. And in WW1 we did not wen't all the way to moscow, we wen't all the way to St. Petersberg.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Detroit
Posts: 26

MARINE- My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment

I too feel the U.S. has become complacent, and in my opinion our military is full of High School kids that just want to party and would be asses and elbows in a real fight. At least the Navy is.

Before anyone tells me I don't know what I am talking about, I spent 5 years of my life there, was a supervisor for 2 of them and got out recently. Maybe quality people would join, or they would have better retention if they improved incentives to compete with civilian sector jobs?

I fear for us if the **** really hit the fan. Technology is fine and dandy, but I think our military relies on it a bit too much. Somebody can do lots of damage with a 2x4 with nails stuck in it...
Ever hear of EMP? What good are fancy electronics when you can't use them?

I like the bit from Starship Troopers, where the kid says he doesn't need to learn knife combat as war is just pushing buttons, and the DI throws the knife and sticks his hand to the target and says, "The enemy can't push buttons, if you DISABLE HIS HAND."

Love that part, wish they really did that.

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Last edited by Valen2k1 on 08-16-2001 at 12:17 PM

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: The Cold Northland!
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quote:

---

Some have mentioned the america had The f-22 as a super-plane unrivaled in the world. This is not true, I have studied the eurofighter and its only real disavantage is the stealthiness, not being as optimezed as the f-22, however is is very agile so if both planes would fight at close range it would be the best pilot to win.
Actualy the Eurofighter has a much better thrust/weight ratiotha the Su-27 series.
The F-22 has a disavantage that not many people are aware of, its missile arsenal. the Eurofighter will carry meteor missiles wich have twice the range of the AMRAAM. By the time eurofigher enters service with the meteor, the Us couterpart will have an relatively old air-to-air arsenal and on top of that theres no intention to arm the f22 with something newer than AIM-9x and AIM120-AMRAAM/C for many years yet.The eurofighter has a comparable sensor capabilty to the f22, and in greater nunbers than the f-22.

---

You definately have a point with the Eurofighter vs the F-22, but lets not discount that the AIM-9X is probably the best version of the Sidewinder line and although it definately lacks some of the features of the ASRAAM (not sure of the official designation), the AIM-9X is relatively cheap...and its designed to work on all of the current fighters and all the fighters from the generation before, so it eliminates the need to go retrofitting aircraft for short range missiles. The AMRAAM or the AIM-120 is relatively new (maybe 10 years in service now?).

Now...last I checked....Canada had 120 CF-18's. I could be wrong...but we've got more than 100 I think. The CP-3 Aurora isn't our only ASW platform, lets not forget the Sea King. But then those are aging hunks of junk that are more dangerous to the crews that operate them. But thats besides the point

We're not really a militaristic nation

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For the price of 1 F-22 you get 2 Eurofighters.

In Dogfight the F-22 is only slightly better than the Eurofighter , but the Eurofighter has MUCH better air-ground capabilities ( F22 is a pure fighter )

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: New York State
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AAaaahh A mature attitude.... Someone who agrees that the US military rocks.... But still ain't all that. There's a place for patriotism... But at the same time be realistic. What good will a Raptor be if the Russians explode a few EMP bombs over our heads?

As for the Marine crack... I know the longstanding enmity between the two branches... But you've got to admit that any Japanese that's old enough to remember the 40's has more than a little respect for the two forces combined. Frankly if we only had a strong Naval and Marine force... That wasn't hindered by the lame training and political idiots that run the government, no nation on the planet could challenge us. Correct me if I'm wrong...

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1218

hey ZOBAFOO you probably forgot IRST infra red scanner so if I could fly an Eurofighter I would use it to lock on the F-22 a shoot it by slaving the meteor to the IRST since the IRST still has a longer range than AMRAAM The F-22 still can find it self in a furball, and the meteor will still go active when it reaches close enough range to burn through the stealth. The russian fighters also have IRST but lack the sofistication on other systems such as radar, stiational awareness related systems as well as awacs support, thats why western fighters were so successfull.
Without Gods eye view of the battle plan fighter fleet will only explore 50% of its effecteviness.Fortunatly europe has plenty of these systems

Icefire The aim-9x will soon look out-classed by several other types already in development stages I'll mention just a few:

-Rafael python 4 ,israel ,I've got some footage with it shooting a drone that is flying straight for the launcher aircraft and when it hits the drone it is alredy practicaly above the launcher aircraft (almost a 180 degrees turn!), and it has a greater range than AIM-9x

-Kentron denel V3 A-darter (south africa) I bet you never heard about this one... it has BVR capability and has an advanced thrust vectoring system has its own Fly-by-wire computer!!! 100g turn capabylity and 2- sec. for a complete 180 degrees turn arround. Doenst need any retrofiting on the aircraft , can and will be used with helmet mounted system.

BGT IRIS-T (its now the germans to swell with pride...any here?)
its a german led but also an multinational european program, germany, sweden, greece, canada (ice ) and norway. Designed to close the gap between the BVR and Close range knife fight, its similar to ASRAAM but project leaders claim it has better detection seeker although slighly shorter range.

another thing in common to these missiles is that they no longer use a coventional IR seeker, so insted of seeing the target as a hot 'blob' they can actualy see its shape, thus will be capable of identifying aand choose point of impact. Sexy isn't it?

Another alarming thing is that there are certain technological block being born in asia to defeat western tech. Such blocks include:
-Israel-China-Pakistan :awacs technology and Israel ex-fighter plane project converted to the J-10 chinese Air superiority plane and chinese tech in pakistani hands.

-Russia-India-france :already put in service very nasty SAM systems with anti-nuclear-balistic-missiles capability also quite deadly for fighters, a sytem similar to that of the advanced patriot.
Complete remodelation to every electronic system for the
SU-30Mkk with the assistance of french tech (thank you very much! ) russia and india are now cooperating for 5th generation fighters ,russia needs funding and will bring back to life some realy nasty extravagant designs such as the S-27(NOT SU-27) forward swept wing ( I beleive it will be a stealth highly maneuvrable russian Tornado counterpart) Not to mention the M.S.I.P Mig or Mig 1.42 as also is known the russian 'Raptor-ESKI' among other nasties tha might come along.

China: projecting the F-7MG/MF, FC-1, J-10 and J-11(Su-30)
The Us is hampering Israel deals to china by black-mail on military aid, but some tech has already leaked to china. Further leakage hapenned most likely during that US spy plane crisis in china
In the future Israel will become a major embarrassement for US as Iraq and Khazakistan had become, a nasty hoby the US politics have. I might be sooner than we think now that the israelis are really wanting a 'holly' (holly MY ) arab war.
As you can see the demise of USSR didnt mean lack of chalanges for the US.

Last edited by haderak on 08-16-2001 at 09:41 PM

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hmmm well people still forgot many things...Russian system on board Su27 does also contain a laser range finder that work in consjunction with the Powerfull IRST(it can lock a target at almost 30 km -in some special condition) ..not to mention that where the russian that use for the first time Helmet Mounted Visors for Close air combat(SHLEM system) .. and Not the last the Vympel R73 A/B (AA-11) Archer ..is still the only operative missile that has a trustvectoring system and still is the most maneuvrable missile and pack a hell of big warhead Hell it can be fired backwards as defensive measure....hehe I knew that all that Nights flying the Flanker2 will be rewarded HEHEEHE ..Flanker 2 best fighter sim ever)

Bottom Line Russian design system that have almost the same coracteristics or even better that western counterparts ...with a Lower cost..The thing is that they maybe don't have the funding for coldwar number production
and Haderack is S37 Berkut- Golden eagle the real name and is a Inteceptor Fighter and the cool thin ..is the S37 will have the already tested on Mig21 "plasma cloud " Stealth generator.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Estonia
Posts: 650

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Shark
Actualy estonia does not have Saab fighters. Our airforce consists of few training planes and some rescue choppers. And in WW1 we did not wen't all the way to moscow, we wen't all the way to St. Petersberg.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was more asleep in the history class then I had thought

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Registered: Jul 2000
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I still think that the F-22 in a squadron based engagement with proper tactics is still a leap ahead of anything else and that includes the Eurofighter. The Eurofighter is definately one of the best warplanes invented by the looks of it. Truly a multi-role, mutli-country aircraft and its got the performance to boot. What the F-22 does is give the US a advantage in straight air superiority. Its stealth (thats radar and IR), it has supercruise capability so its endurance at high speeds outmatches pretty much everything else out there, it has 2d thrust vectoring engines that are shielded as to lower a IR signal, it has an incredibly advanced (and most likely expensive) active and passive radar system. The radar it employs is fairly stealth in its own right so going active doesn't give away the plane completely.

The whole idea behind the Raptor is First Look, Shoot, Kill (I think I got that right). Its definately not as multirole as the Eurofighter and its definately alot more expensive, but I don't think its that much of a waste. The JSF will no doubt fill the role for multirole capabilities (its supposed to replace the F-16, Harrier, and A-10 all in one package).

Missile technology is apparently lacking however

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Registered: Jul 2001
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Firstly haderak, you'll have to know its there (damn hard with the stealth) before you activate the IRST infra red scanner. Also the missle wont be able to burn through the stealth (not even the most powerfull radar were able to acomplish that).The F-22 also has a more powerful radar, it could spot you, sneak up behind and blow your away!HA! The missiles you said wont matter if the plane cant see the F-22, the F-22 also has the lowest IR signature (prop planes might be lower but I dont think you like going aginst the F-22 in a spitfire!) The US is also in development of a new fighter, the Switchblade that can outrun any fighter, like the Mig-25 foxbat (hell it can also outrun our own SR-71 Blackbird) One last thing targeting the F-22 is harder than targeting the Blackbird And no country has done that! I hate looking at radar ranges(mectric system very confusing

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Z'ha'dum
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I would hate to see the A-10 get fased out, Hell of alot of fire power! The JSF will have very large shoes to fill if they plan to replace the A-10 with that. Unless they plane to put the same gun on it, but probably wont fit. JUST LOOK AT THE DAMN GUN!


Now thats a big gun,but it would be cool to see the JSF litteraly saw planes in half with it!

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You come here and you will die.
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Words of logic from RED GREEN
The mans prayer "I'm a man,but I can change if I have to,I guess."
The three little words men find so hard to say "I don't know"

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: The Rugged Grains of Shaolin Soil
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Anybody read, NOT see Starship troopers?
one of the best books i've ever read. Ideologically, the MI would kick the **** out of any nation today. All for the simple fact that if you dont want in, they dont keep you in. In fact, they make you try to quit. That way, you only have people that want to be there. Personally, I'd feel comforted to know that only the soldiers that really really want to be defending my ass and my liberties are the ones doing so.

Quality not quantity

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 2275

I have a friend that has done so. He allegedly 8's B5, if you get my drift. He may comment here.

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