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Terran capships too well rounded

I've been thinking a while for the past two days (cause thats what I do when schools out) and having beaten FS2 last week again I realized that the terran ships are trying to be good at too many things. So here are my suggested changes for the terran capships I will attempt to make it so that much like IRL you need a battlegroup.

Hecate -If the front two beamcannons arent already BGreens, make them BGreens (cause I cant remember if they are). Then in one of the mission briefings it shows a beam cannon on either side of the "head" on the wings, add those in and make them MGreens. Below those cannons add an anti-fighter beam. On the post the two terslashes (I believe) stay the same. Then on the engine blocks add one MGreen to either side. Add three anti-fighter beams to the bottom of the ship and four to the top, one on the top and bottom of the head, the others mounted on the spine, two on top mounted to the "wings". And one in back to help the other covering those flak cannons. Now you say "that's way overpowered" and yes it is, but the fighter/bomber complement is dropped by 3/4ths. Lots of power going to environmental and repair systems is now freed up. The last two changes are making the hull tough enough to take the full on 4 beams from a Sathanas and only drop the hull to about 55% and adding 5-10 to its speed.

GTCa Eurynome -Has a design somewhat reminiscent of the aged Orion class, somewhat flatter with a much larger launch ramp. This ship can hit a top speed of 45 m/s, faster than most ships her size, she has no anti capship beams but has five flak cannons mounted top and bottom, with six anti-fighter beams along either side. If a capital ship gets within range the carrier must jump or be destroyed, however she can hold her own against bombers as she scrambles her fighters to intercept. These ships may be frail but they hold the most pilots and have the largest crew in the GTVA.

Deimos -It loses its anti-fighter beams and gains about 5 m/s of speed. She is a maneuverable ship, designed to get out of the main firing arc of destroyers and hit them from the side, it needs a fighter or cruiser escort to survive against bomber attacks.

Aeolus -Loses its two anti-capship beams and gains three more anti-fighter beams, two in the front, one in the back to cover the engines. These ships are made to cover against fighters and bombers, they can quickly move to the aid of friendly capital ships and are a sight to behold as they plow through enemy fighter wings with their AAA beams and flak cannons blazing.

Fenris/Leviathan -These have been removed from service and stripped for parts for the new Eurynome class of ships, their beam cannons are modified for use on the overhauled Deimos and Hecate class of ships.

Orion -These aging ships have contributed much to the GTVA but now they are being taken off front lines and dismantled. There are still five of them ready to go in case of an emergency. They can be put on the front lines or used for evacuating a planet. Most of their fighters are being taken to the Eurynome class of ships.

The reason that these changes *would* be possible is because of the fast knowledge gained during the Capella incident, with more powerful reactors ships can carry more weaponry and still gain some speed. However the GTVA Security Council realized its mistake in their ships' designs and ordered creation of the Ca class and overhauling of the existing ships so they could create truly effective battlegroups capable of taking down Shivan Juggernauts and anything else that might damage the GTVA.

Edit 1: I had a silly mistake in grammar, repeated something.

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Last edited by Stalker on 07-03-2002 at 08:28 PM

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Terran capships too well rounded

I've been thinking a while for the past two days (cause thats what I do when schools out) and having beaten FS2 last week again I realized that the terran ships are trying to be good at too many things. So here are my suggested changes for the terran capships I will attempt to make it so that much like IRL you need a battlegroup.

Hecate -If the front two beamcannons arent already BGreens, make them BGreens (cause I cant remember if they are). Then in one of the mission briefings it shows a beam cannon on either side of the "head" on the wings, add those in and make them MGreens. Below those cannons add an anti-fighter beam. On the post the two terslashes (I believe) stay the same. Then on the engine blocks add one MGreen to either side. Add three anti-fighter beams to the bottom of the ship and four to the top, one on the top and bottom of the head, the others mounted on the spine, two on top mounted to the "wings". And one in back to help the other covering those flak cannons. Now you say "that's way overpowered" and yes it is, but the fighter/bomber complement is dropped by 3/4ths. Lots of power going to environmental and repair systems is now freed up. The last two changes are making the hull tough enough to take the full on 4 beams from a Sathanas and only drop the hull to about 55% and adding 5-10 to its speed.

GTCa Eurynome -Has a design somewhat reminiscent of the aged Orion class, somewhat flatter with a much larger launch ramp. This ship can hit a top speed of 45 m/s, faster than most ships her size, she has no anti capship beams but has five flak cannons mounted top and bottom, with six anti-fighter beams along either side. If a capital ship gets within range the carrier must jump or be destroyed, however she can hold her own against bombers as she scrambles her fighters to intercept. These ships may be frail but they hold the most pilots and have the largest crew in the GTVA.

Deimos -It loses its anti-fighter beams and gains about 5 m/s of speed. She is a maneuverable ship, designed to get out of the main firing arc of destroyers and hit them from the side, it needs a fighter or cruiser escort to survive against bomber attacks.

Aeolus -Loses its two anti-capship beams and gains three more anti-fighter beams, two in the front, one in the back to cover the engines. These ships are made to cover against fighters and bombers, they can quickly move to the aid of friendly capital ships and are a sight to behold as they plow through enemy fighter wings with their AAA beams and flak cannons blazing.

Fenris/Leviathan -These have been removed from service and stripped for parts for the new Eurynome class of ships, their beam cannons are modified for use on the overhauled Deimos and Hecate class of ships.

Orion -These aging ships have contributed much to the GTVA but now they are being taken off front lines and dismantled. There are still five of them ready to go in case of an emergency. They can be put on the front lines or used for evacuating a planet. Most of their fighters are being taken to the Eurynome class of ships.

The reason that these changes *would* be possible is because of the fast knowledge gained during the Capella incident, with more powerful reactors ships can carry more weaponry and still gain some speed. However the GTVA Security Council realized its mistake in their ships' designs and ordered creation of the Ca class and overhauling of the existing ships so they could create truly effective battlegroups capable of taking down Shivan Juggernauts and anything else that might damage the GTVA.

Edit 1: I had a silly mistake in grammar, repeated something.

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Last edited by Stalker on 07-03-2002 at 08:28 PM

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I seriously agree with the Aeolus MOD here - these are some interesting ideas. Not sure about the Orion or the older cruisers. If a design works well, why not keep it?

Removing them would mean you would have to find a design to replace them, and cruisers are hard to balance.

About the Dimos - that seems to make it too specific in task, what happens if you need to deploy a cap ship quickly to a fighter skirmish and all you have is one of this Cap-killers?

Hecate - The modifications would completly convert it from its original design, from a taskforce flagship and command and control destroyer, to a heavily armed battleship with a light fighter compliment. The fleet would be left with a gap - battleships and carriers, but nothing inbetween.

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Last edited by Pr011 on 07-03-2002 at 06:18 PM

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I seriously agree with the Aeolus MOD here - these are some interesting ideas. Not sure about the Orion or the older cruisers. If a design works well, why not keep it?

Removing them would mean you would have to find a design to replace them, and cruisers are hard to balance.

About the Dimos - that seems to make it too specific in task, what happens if you need to deploy a cap ship quickly to a fighter skirmish and all you have is one of this Cap-killers?

Hecate - The modifications would completly convert it from its original design, from a taskforce flagship and command and control destroyer, to a heavily armed battleship with a light fighter compliment. The fleet would be left with a gap - battleships and carriers, but nothing inbetween.

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Last edited by Pr011 on 07-03-2002 at 06:18 PM

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For the Deimos I suggested that change because the cruisers are built to protect the fleet from the fighters/bombers and there are lots of them around, you would always be able to scramble one or two and the effect of these changes is creating a well balanced fleet. This goes with the theory that there are fewer ships available because of the Capella incident. Carriers or battleships have historically been the flagships of fleets, not destroyers. By making the carrier once again the center of the fleet the roles for different ships has to change. The cruisers become fast response ships to smash through fighters and save other capships from bombers, corvettes protect against other capships that get fairly close to the carrier. The destroyers are there to provide a capital ship that can handle most threats. And the carrier carries enough fighters and bombers to effectively negate several capital ships and at least a hundred wings of fighters. (Eurynome carries roughly 250 wings of fighters/bombers). Which would you rather have? A combined arms fleet capable of sustaining itself or a few capital ships that when pitted against good pilots in bombers with a fighter escort and a corvette backing them up gets smashed.

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The term "destroyer" in Freespace seems to refer to something other than the defensive "Torpedo Boat Destroyer."(Same witha corvette, which has historically always been a small warship...) The term "Destroyer" seems synonimous with battleship or at least a moderate ship of the line.

And technically command ships have recently been relegated as smaller cruiser sized vessels which are almost totally dedicated to radar and control facilities...

The concept of role dedicated ships isn't a bad one but it also tends to limit the flexibility of said fleet.

While it's best to have a concentration on a certain role, fleet ships should always be at the very least capable of covering their own hide when push comes to shove.(There is a reason why even carriers have defensive armament afterall.)

The concepts seem sound, but I think it would be better to not go to such extremes in terms of changes. Yes refit ships with better weapons for a certain role, but making them one-dimensional would just serve to make fire concentration on a single target that much more important.(For example, what happens if a carrier is destroyed in the opening round of a battle with a well placed concentration of weaponry?)

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The term "destroyer" in Freespace seems to refer to something other than the defensive "Torpedo Boat Destroyer."(Same witha corvette, which has historically always been a small warship...) The term "Destroyer" seems synonimous with battleship or at least a moderate ship of the line.

And technically command ships have recently been relegated as smaller cruiser sized vessels which are almost totally dedicated to radar and control facilities...

The concept of role dedicated ships isn't a bad one but it also tends to limit the flexibility of said fleet.

While it's best to have a concentration on a certain role, fleet ships should always be at the very least capable of covering their own hide when push comes to shove.(There is a reason why even carriers have defensive armament afterall.)

The concepts seem sound, but I think it would be better to not go to such extremes in terms of changes. Yes refit ships with better weapons for a certain role, but making them one-dimensional would just serve to make fire concentration on a single target that much more important.(For example, what happens if a carrier is destroyed in the opening round of a battle with a well placed concentration of weaponry?)

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If the Eurynome is destroyed before it has a chance to launch its fighters and bombers the Hecate still has 152 fighters, 38 wings (1/4 of 150 is 37.5 so I rounded :-p) Which is enough to fend for the fleet for a while as the cruisers take up positions around the destroyer and the corvettes begin to tackle the enemy capital ships with the Hecate coming in behind them opening a can o' whoop ass (can I say that on these forums?). They would still be able to operate and mount a strike. And I agree on the fact that nowadays control ships are cruisers or frigates (but since we've never seen a frigate in FS...) So why not create a highly mobile command and control ship (and isn't "command" technically already in command?) What do you think about this?

GTCc (Command Cruiser) -Ophion (the mythological [Roman] snake who was the offspring of Eurynome) A small capital ship it is equipped with advanced sensor arrays, transmitters, and recievers, allowing it to direct and filter all fleet traffic through its advanced comm center. It is only equipped with five anti-fighter beams that cover the full 360 degrees around its hull, it has maxim cannon turrets designed to quickly and accurately shoot down bombs as it makes its escape at an amazingly quick speed of 65 m/s. If in trouble it can override combat craft, up to cruiser size, and engage their jump drives to bring their aid. These ships allow a much more flexible system of control. No longer do all transmissions from each fleet filter through one central office several hundred light years away.

And I'd like to thank Pr011 for at least agreeing with one point . Nice to know someone agrees with something here.

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If the Eurynome is destroyed before it has a chance to launch its fighters and bombers the Hecate still has 152 fighters, 38 wings (1/4 of 150 is 37.5 so I rounded :-p) Which is enough to fend for the fleet for a while as the cruisers take up positions around the destroyer and the corvettes begin to tackle the enemy capital ships with the Hecate coming in behind them opening a can o' whoop ass (can I say that on these forums?). They would still be able to operate and mount a strike. And I agree on the fact that nowadays control ships are cruisers or frigates (but since we've never seen a frigate in FS...) So why not create a highly mobile command and control ship (and isn't "command" technically already in command?) What do you think about this?

GTCc (Command Cruiser) -Ophion (the mythological [Roman] snake who was the offspring of Eurynome) A small capital ship it is equipped with advanced sensor arrays, transmitters, and recievers, allowing it to direct and filter all fleet traffic through its advanced comm center. It is only equipped with five anti-fighter beams that cover the full 360 degrees around its hull, it has maxim cannon turrets designed to quickly and accurately shoot down bombs as it makes its escape at an amazingly quick speed of 65 m/s. If in trouble it can override combat craft, up to cruiser size, and engage their jump drives to bring their aid. These ships allow a much more flexible system of control. No longer do all transmissions from each fleet filter through one central office several hundred light years away.

And I'd like to thank Pr011 for at least agreeing with one point . Nice to know someone agrees with something here.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Stalker
If the Eurynome is destroyed before it has a chance to launch its fighters and bombers the Hecate still has 152 fighters, 38 wings (1/4 of 150 is 37.5 so I rounded :-p)

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Stalker
If the Eurynome is destroyed before it has a chance to launch its fighters and bombers the Hecate still has 152 fighters, 38 wings (1/4 of 150 is 37.5 so I rounded :-p)

---

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Ah yes, I was going off memory from a briefing and I screwed up the word in my head. Didnt bother to actually check. Sorry bout that. And I believe the fleet could still survive, you have to keep in mind this is a battle group with one carrier, one destroyer, five or six corvettes, and ten to twelve cruisers, it has ample cruisers to provide a protective screen against fighters and bombers on the two central ships, assuming the carrier is taken down the eight now free cruisers move to cover corvettes and the extras move to cover the destroyer. This is no longer a "one lone ship on a mission" deal but a self-sufficient battlegroup capable of coping with the loss of its fighter screen.

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Ah yes, I was going off memory from a briefing and I screwed up the word in my head. Didnt bother to actually check. Sorry bout that. And I believe the fleet could still survive, you have to keep in mind this is a battle group with one carrier, one destroyer, five or six corvettes, and ten to twelve cruisers, it has ample cruisers to provide a protective screen against fighters and bombers on the two central ships, assuming the carrier is taken down the eight now free cruisers move to cover corvettes and the extras move to cover the destroyer. This is no longer a "one lone ship on a mission" deal but a self-sufficient battlegroup capable of coping with the loss of its fighter screen.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by karajorma
Nice idea but your figures for the Hecate are wrong. The FS2 database states that the hecate carrys over 150 fighter and bombers. So your estimate of 600 fighters for a standard FS2 destroyer is far too high.

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by karajorma
Nice idea but your figures for the Hecate are wrong. The FS2 database states that the hecate carrys over 150 fighter and bombers. So your estimate of 600 fighters for a standard FS2 destroyer is far too high.

---

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That means that the hecate carries more ships than the 60 wings that the colossus carries in it's gargantuan hanger.

Anyway Here it is straight from the ships table.

quote:

---

"The new GTD Hecate class of destroyers is replacing the Orion class as the flagship of Terran battle groups. More heavily armed than the Orion, the Hecate also carries over 150 combat spacecraft and a crew of 10,000. The GTD Aquitaine is a superb example of this new ship class, serving as the flagship of the Capella-based 3rd Fleet.

---

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That means that the hecate carries more ships than the 60 wings that the colossus carries in it's gargantuan hanger.

Anyway Here it is straight from the ships table.

quote:

---

"The new GTD Hecate class of destroyers is replacing the Orion class as the flagship of Terran battle groups. More heavily armed than the Orion, the Hecate also carries over 150 combat spacecraft and a crew of 10,000. The GTD Aquitaine is a superb example of this new ship class, serving as the flagship of the Capella-based 3rd Fleet.

---

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Don`t forget about one thing which is not always remembered: any system is very large and you have to organise patrols to know what`s happening ( even the smallest systems are big enough to serve as a hideout of a complete battlegroup) so you cannot use the fleet only in one part, deploying from one point to another.
The cruisers are made for patroling and finding out if anything`s going on so they` re very, very useful and a fllet designed only to make clash with enemy battlegroups would be blind.

Don`t forget you may not be able to provide enough escort for the Anti-caps using Aeolus and not many fighters only. The Aeolus probably aren`t really in quantity to deal with such a task.


Another thing: as I remember the Shivans don`t fight using Caps and their beams only...
So if you had a battle group with poor escort, the group would meet soon waves of bombers, one after another and it`s easy for a wave of bombers to disable or disarm a non protected capship.

The Shivans could always send their bombers to disable the fleet and then send a Sathanas...

and whole battle group or even fleet disappears.

I think the tactic in the GTVA is comparable with that of today: the forces should be covered from the attack, it is much more important to know what`s going on than just use the blind force.

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Don`t forget about one thing which is not always remembered: any system is very large and you have to organise patrols to know what`s happening ( even the smallest systems are big enough to serve as a hideout of a complete battlegroup) so you cannot use the fleet only in one part, deploying from one point to another.
The cruisers are made for patroling and finding out if anything`s going on so they` re very, very useful and a fllet designed only to make clash with enemy battlegroups would be blind.

Don`t forget you may not be able to provide enough escort for the Anti-caps using Aeolus and not many fighters only. The Aeolus probably aren`t really in quantity to deal with such a task.


Another thing: as I remember the Shivans don`t fight using Caps and their beams only...
So if you had a battle group with poor escort, the group would meet soon waves of bombers, one after another and it`s easy for a wave of bombers to disable or disarm a non protected capship.

The Shivans could always send their bombers to disable the fleet and then send a Sathanas...

and whole battle group or even fleet disappears.

I think the tactic in the GTVA is comparable with that of today: the forces should be covered from the attack, it is much more important to know what`s going on than just use the blind force.

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I don't agree with everything you said, but you do have some interesting ideas.
The Hecate was never the badarse ship that it should have been.
And don't get me started on the Colossus...

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