Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, United States
Posts: 1016

It's time for me to leave

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/Forum13/HTML/001698.html

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Registered: Dec 2001
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KAAZAN WROTE "After I get windows emulation running on my linux machine I will be able to help out - and i may even be able to play FreeSpace 2 and Red Faction! (i've seen screens of them running on windows emulation faster than on windows)"


Linux emulating windows will never be as fast or faster than native MS-WINDOWS. Nothing emulated can ever acheave the same speed as native support. Even (hypatheticly speaking) if it could it would not matter as Windows is not what holds up games. Thats your graphics card and CPU + memory subsystem.

Tomshardware does a good review on 3D gaming of Native Linux VS Native Windows in cross platform tests. The results were very similiar with MS-Windows egding out Linux.

2 conclusions can be made from this.
A. The hardware is the limiting factor
B. You can cut anywhere from 50-80% off the performance of Linux when emulating Windows.

The gerneral rule of thumb when emulating software is that you will generaly have a 50% performance loss.

With Windows XP/2000 out, Linux has no advantage anymore. Windows is just as stable and can manage memory just as well, if not better. Windows supports millions of configurations whereas Linux does not... Linux is the thing of the past... No need to keep it, except for game servers and for company specific servers. Including internet servers.

Linux for home use is like driving a Military hummer on the freeway... It's not as fast or manuvable as cars.
Keep it where it belongs, in the military defending and attacking.

Sorry for the off-topic post. It just irks me when people claim emulation is faster than native support. This is of course per clock/per cycle of the CPU.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Bracknell, England
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Well, no matter how it runs, someone is going to have to write an equivalent of DirectX if they want a modern game to run. That could be a big problem.
There is only one advantage to emulating Windows. It might be more stable!
I do have a machine running Linux and it has never fouled up on me yet. That's more than I can say for Windows.

Last edited by Coconut Joe on 01-05-2002 at 03:45 AM

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Registered: Aug 2000
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Coconut Joe: Run Windows 2000. I think I had maybe two crashes and both were caused by me. That is, I can crash W2K but it takes a LOT of effort and it doesn't crash on its own like 9x.

Still, if properly configured, Linux is insanely stable, nobody can deny that.

And emulation loss can be much more than 50%.
Take the SNES - 3MHz CPU. It took a P100, P133 to emulate it properly and for SuperFX games like StarFox, at least a P200. Just an example.

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"There is only one advantage to emulating Windows. It might be more stable!
I do have a machine running Linux and it has never fouled up on me yet. That's more than I can say for Windows."


I used to run both Linux and Windows98. While it is true that Windows98 is a bit unstable, that however, is not the case with Windows2000 and XP. I ditched Linux for stability as soon as I as able to get my hands on WindowsXP. It has proved extremely stable, fast, and most of all compatable... More than I can say for Linux! :-)

Linux has its place... Just not for home users or gamers...

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"Coconut Joe: Run Windows 2000. I think I had maybe two crashes and both were caused by me. That is, I can crash W2K but it takes a LOT of effort and it doesn't crash on its own like 9x.

Still, if properly configured, Linux is insanely stable, nobody can deny that.

And emulation loss can be much more than 50%.
Take the SNES - 3MHz CPU. It took a P100, P133 to emulate it properly and for SuperFX games like StarFox, at least a P200. Just an example. "


I have never crashed WindowsXP, I am sure it can be done though. It is also interesting to note that I have also crashed Linux... Nothing is 100% stable. But Linux in command prompt is as close as it gets. Part of the reason for it's stability can be atrributed to it's lack of software support and hardware support. One bad driver can bring down a system... But linux has no "REAL" drivers for cutting edge technology. That is the reason it is so stable. It took Linux 2 years for someone to add 3Dnow to the OS kernal to take advantage of it. That is why Linux is so stable... Because it really can't do anything other than run very proprietary software and hardware. Even the Linux drivers are very basic and do not take into account the extra features a certain perepheral has.

KDE and GNOME (X-Windows, GUI for Linux) will crash an entire Linux box... Ive done it a few times.


As for emulation, you are totaly correct, I did not want to use anything higher than 50% as a rule of thumb, because if properly coded you can reduce much of the performance problems. Part of the reason the SNES took more CPU power was because it was not using the same architecture. It was going from its risc based CPU to a X86... That alone causes a major slowdown. When going from Linux to Windows all it needs to do is convert the file system and the way it addresses. Now that may sound like an easy task, but that alone takes many extra cycles... Thus emulation will always be slower :-)


Thanks for the input guys.

Last edited by ArchAngel777 on 01-05-2002 at 06:18 AM

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Bracknell, England
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I did run W2K at one point but that was before it was meant to come out There was no driver support for it. I agree it did run without crashing but there was nothing I could run on it at the time. So, I went back to Windows 98 and have been on this ever since.
I've been hearing a lot of good things about XP. Can't say I like the new look but that is my preferance. I might consider getting it.

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Registered: Feb 2001
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XP runs like a dream Best GUI you can get.

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AND, you can download hundreds of new GUI's....that has to be one of the best "candy coated features". The stability, driver management, and all of the rest are excellent as well.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, United States
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quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel777

Linux emulating windows will never be as fast or faster than native MS-WINDOWS. Nothing emulated can ever acheave the same speed as native support. Even (hypatheticly speaking) if it could it would not matter as Windows is not what holds up games. Thats your graphics card and CPU + memory subsystem.

---

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Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel777
With Windows XP/2000 out, Linux has no advantage anymore. Windows is just as stable and can manage memory just as well, if not better. Windows supports millions of configurations whereas Linux does not... Linux is the thing of the past... No need to keep it, except for game servers and for company specific servers. Including internet servers.

Linux for home use is like driving a Military hummer on the freeway... It's not as fast or manuvable as cars.
Keep it where it belongs, in the military defending and attacking.

Sorry for the off-topic post. It just irks me when people claim emulation is faster than native support. This is of course per clock/per cycle of the CPU.

---

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Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Coconut Joe
Well, no matter how it runs, someone is going to have to write an equivalent of DirectX if they want a modern game to run. That could be a big problem.
There is only one advantage to emulating Windows. It might be more stable!
I do have a machine running Linux and it has never fouled up on me yet. That's more than I can say for Windows.

---

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"wanna make a bet? Wine consistently beats windows it running it's own apps - hands down - when Wine can run the app"


Not true my friend... Give me a link to a credable source, and then I may look it over to see if it is legit. I can promise anyone reading this that it is imposseble for WINE (Windows Emuation) to run faster than Windows98/XP with the same hardware.

I will state this again, The OS is not the problem with games and their framerate. That is limited by the fill rate of the video card and your CPU+memory subsystem.

Both Native Linux and Native Windows run neck and neck for performance. So according to your claims this is what you are saying "Linux when emulating Windows is faster than Linux" Look the the absurdity of that comment... You need to rethink your claims over.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, United States
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Arch - i've had enough of your posting


you don't know what the **** you're talking about and you have been listening to microsoft too much - if you took ten seconds to walk around and look at all the apps for linux you'd find much higher support

and the only reason why linux is slightly behind in hardware support is the maintainers of linux have to write the drivers since most companies are ass munches and don't write them for us


Third- linux is entirely more stable from the ground up - any apps that manages to crash linux was miswritten in a very major way - and the only time i normally see it is in windows apps that have been ported incorrectly.


get you're head out of your ass and stop listening to microsoft - and you're claim to have used linux may be true - but you didn't look around your CDs and you didn't look around the net for more than 3 seconds

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Registered: Aug 2000
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first read what i said correctly

second i've seen it done many times - you just have to tweak out your windows emu a bit

and i refere to my last post

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quote:

---

Originally posted by IceFire
AND, you can download hundreds of new GUI's....that has to be one of the best "candy coated features". The stability, driver management, and all of the rest are excellent as well.

---

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"you don't know what you're talking about
1) XP is unkown to be still unstable, and have massive security holes - one which allows the user root (SYSTEM) access on their first datagram sent "

XP is "Unknown" to be "Unstable"? You do realize that is a double negative... The english language does not allow for that. Your sentance said this "You do realize XP is known to be stable." and I can't agree more with your statement.

That so called "Security" hole has nothing to do with stability, and it was fixed just hours after the hole was found... That is what I call top notch service... To have major bugs fixed imediately.


"2) Linux is a far superior desktop if you can get over the learning curve (which is getting less and less steap) "

Nope, KDE and KNOME take way to much CPU power to run them. Some of them are a bit better. But they still are not as effecient the XP GUI


"3) You're thinking of CPU emulation - operating system emulation only requires you alias function calls - and if you do it correctly it costs NO performance and can actually increase performance if the origional OS wasn't well written"

Actually if you read all of my posts you would see that I distinctly made a call to CPU and OS emulation. Go back and read what I wrote in my other posts.

Your statement basicly says then that Linux was not written correctly. After all, Linux trails about 1% behind Windows on cross platforms such as Lightwave, or any other rendering program. Which means that either Windows was written very well, and Linux is almost as good, or it means they both suck. Take your pick...

"Next time you decide to me rude to me and insult me first know that you're talking to a computer programmer, second that you're talking to someone that has been programming since he was 10 - third someone who can remember when Microsoft wasn't a monopoly"

Not being rude my friend, pointing out the truth, I am trying to open your eyes. What you state is the imposseble. I am impressed by your programming skills, though I have never seen anything programed by you...

"and fourth someone that understands what he is talking about - unlike you"

Well, I am glad you have an opinion of my knowledge. But it is just that, an opinion.


"There is a tons of stuff for game support on linux - all with on the standard interfaces... *rolleyes* do you think we're stupid?

if you use the same interface (fast interface) for apps and games you only have to write one interface codebase!"


I would not say there is a ton of support for games.... But it is getting better... But Linux still has only 1% of what windows has to choose for games... I certainly do not call that a "ton"

Last edited by ArchAngel777 on 01-05-2002 at 05:56 PM

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"http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/00q4/001002/index.html"

Go to Tomshardware there... He did a review on the latest drivers for nVidia. You will see that Linux trails behind Windows 2000 by a good 2-10%

There is proof from a extremely high credable source... I have yet to see yours...

:-)

Last edited by ArchAngel777 on 01-05-2002 at 06:07 PM

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Registered: Aug 2000
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as for the 'unknown' instead of 'known' that was a brainfart


as for you the rest - you are a microsoft brainwashed fool - get out of my sight and stop posting in my thread you ignoramous

BTW: Tom's Hardware is not creditable

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Last edited by Kazan on 01-05-2002 at 06:19 PM

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Registered: May 2001
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ArchAngel777 FYI KDE and Gnome can be customised to use hardly any CPU power at all, have you ever even used Linux?

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