VWBB - Defense Grids

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- The Babylon Project (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=16)
-- Defense Grids (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=8663)

Posted by ravingpartyking on 04-08-2003 11:49 PM:

Defense Grids

I was wondering, how are you going to incorporate defense grids?

Will they be taken into account in the ship's hitpoints value or are you going to do some fancy source code work?

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Posted by Krytor on 04-09-2003 12:24 AM:

you mean the interceptors? The Defense Grid in B5 had nothing to do with prevention from damage... it is the stations weapons system.

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Posted by BabProj Team on 04-09-2003 12:41 AM:

FS2 lets us have hull hitpoints and shields for fighters. Basically we've got a 10 point shield for all fighters to defend against shockwaves doing uber damage and then capital ships just have hitpoints like usual. Nothing fancy...nor do I think with the way FS2 models damage that a B5 style defense grid would be worth it.

No source code required for R2. Probably R2.1.

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Posted by redmenace7 on 04-09-2003 02:40 AM:

umm also can we be able to have the the turrets pop out of the hull when the defensive grid is activated. This is probably going to involve SCP.

Posted by BabProj Team on 04-09-2003 03:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by redmenace7
umm also can we be able to have the the turrets pop out of the hull when the defensive grid is activated. This is probably going to involve SCP.

SCP and alot of very hard work to make an animated thing....I don't see this realistically happening...anytime soon anyways.

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Posted by redmenace7 on 04-09-2003 04:56 AM:

Ya, this is only a minor detail. They have bigger problems such as the unexplained CTD. apparently they are working on it and should have them fixed by 3.5.4. Personally I would like to see turret positions other than up or down before they would ever tackle the turrets popping out of the hull.

Posted by Aggressor on 04-09-2003 06:31 AM:

err....i don't wanna sound like a idiot, but whats a Defence Grid?

Posted by Mr. Fury on 04-09-2003 07:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Aggressor
err....i don't wanna sound like a idiot, but whats a Defence Grid?

A station's weapons. A station is generally immobile, so their weapons are referred as defense grids.

Some ship defensive weapons may also be called defense grids.

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Posted by Don Buergit on 04-09-2003 12:16 PM:

Jes but what with the B5 interceptors?

You know, the weapons that could destroy the Ion cannon bolts of the Centauri ship, that attacked the Station. (I think the eppisode with the bomb in the Train. Where Kosh left his suit to rescue Sheridan)

The weapons shots just eliminated each other.

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Posted by -Norbert- on 04-09-2003 12:26 PM:

I think ravingpartyking refered to the Defencive Generatiors (or something like that). In one Episode it was called shields when a Omega fled to B5 and accidentially destroyed an attacking Hyperion.

That is as much as I know some kind of elecrtomagnetic field to reduce the damage of incoming fire (gravimetric on centauri and minbari vessels).

Posted by Kazan on 04-09-2003 12:38 PM:

wow. nobody here knows how to spell defense

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Posted by IPAndrews on 04-09-2003 12:52 PM:

DefenCe grids are a no go because the way FS2 handles projectiles is a ****ed up hack.

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Posted by Jokoto on 04-09-2003 01:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by -Norbert-
I think ravingpartyking refered to the Defencive Generatiors (or something like that). In one Episode it was called shields when a Omega fled to B5 and accidentially destroyed an attacking Hyperion.

That is as much as I know some kind of elecrtomagnetic field to reduce the damage of incoming fire (gravimetric on centauri and minbari vessels).

Shields? "Generatiors"? Accidentally? What show were you watching?
The interceptors shoot at incoming weapons fire, dissipating them or reducing their effect. The Omega in the episode Severed Dreams (the Alexander) destroyed the pursuing EA Clarkstown with it's aft beam. It was no accident, but a hard decision. Clarkstown's interceptors were down, so it blew because the beam punched through the hull. The Alexander's interceptors were functioning, so Clarkstown's beam fire incurred less damage.

Defense grid is simply a term referring to the weapon systems that are used to defend a station or ship. Not so hard to understand, eh? No mystical shields, force fields or babble generators.

Those with these strange ideas should read the [URL=http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/Usenet/jms97-02-usenet/61.html]description[/URL] of interceptors...
Quote: "The interceptors have two components, one that throws a ball of energy at an incoming weapons charge (physical or energy) and causes dissipation, and the other is a net-like energy web that reduces the severity, but does not deflect or absorb, beam type energy."

B5 has a nice down-to-earth feel with it's tech most of the time, that's why I like it.

Also, regarding other defensive measures... Check the episode "And Now For a Word" (second season). In the battle between G'Quan and the centauri cruiser the first shots barely miss each other... Quote from JMS:
"Why did the battleships keep missing each other?
Actually, all sides in battle use ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) to throw off the targeting systems on the "enemy" vessels. But usually it only takes a couple of quick firings to compensate (which is what we've done)."

Again, no babble magic, but a realistic defensive method. I like it.

Posted by Jokoto on 04-09-2003 01:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by IPAndrews
DefenCe grids are a no go because the way FS2 handles projectiles is a ****ed up hack.

(Making two posts to keep these subjects separate.)
Defence vs. defense... the other one is the british form, the other one's the american. Take your pick, people.

I've been meaning to dig into the (non-) possibility of implementing interceptors to the source... Sadly, I don't have the energy to study the code myself, but I understand that keeping track of the weapon shots, which is required for this, is a difficult task. How bad is it, is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Would it require a completely different implementation to enable targeting of incoming fire?

Interception itself shouldn't be too hard after that... Maybe as simple as making a weapon that shoots a model at incoming shots, thus intercepting them... Right? Beams would be harder, no ideas there. Anyway, any coders with a twinkle in the corner of his eye regarding interceptors? This could be too hungry processing power-wise, but I'd still like to brainstorm this.

Posted by IPAndrews on 04-09-2003 01:51 PM:

The source handles secondaries like missiles and bombs differently to primaries such as plasma and laser bolts. Interception works for secondaries marked as "bombs". If you could merge the two systems you could make the tracking code and thus "bomb" tag available to everything. There would be a performance hit of course.

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Posted by Grey Area on 04-09-2003 03:16 PM:

I got the impression that the defence grid is a multi-system platform that provides a similar system to today's Phalanx and Goal-keeper defence gattling guns on ships in the navy.

Various sytems are employed, from the equivalents of chaff and flares to more directed systems (like the plasma used to dissipate incoming pulse weapon shots).

I'm not sure whether that huge "Eye" cannon that fires green is a true part of the defence grid, or an offensive weapon in its own right.

Since it's on a station it probably does count as a defence system, but I think it might be a grey area.

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Posted by BabProj Team on 04-09-2003 04:39 PM:

As that JMS news area suggested...capital ships employ two basic defense grid technologies. One is the energy web device which dissipates the impact...I like to think of this as a structural integrity field that just spreads the impact across the hull making its piercing damage less of an issue. The second is the actual energy weapons that are used to shoot incoming projectiles.

For FS2, as IP points out, Interceptors that shoot down incoming bolts would do things like performance hits and I can see a whole host of problems between capital ships switching between offense and defense...because...all of these craft use their offensive and defensive weapons in both fire mode types (the Hyperion from A Voice in the Wilderness Part 2 used its Plasma turrets on the aft quarter to shoot down incoming bolts as well as presumably return fire).

With the defense web...FS2 pretty much employes that already. Damage taken is sutained to the whole of the hull and not to a specific area. If we want to properly take a ship apart with "interceptors down", then its very easy to script a beam or pulse barrage followed by a self destruct event.

So I don't really see either being implemented in any big or grand way.

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Posted by Jokoto on 04-09-2003 05:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by IceFire
I like to think of this as a structural integrity field

I still don't think there's a mystical 'field', there is no magical force field tech on EA ships. I think of the method for interceptors reducing the damage from beams as them shooting stuff in the beam's way too, the beam just is too powerful to be stopped completely like that. I shun the "force field" explanation because it's directly from a 'Trek-like' universe - I like the relatively 'realistic' B5 universe with these plausible methods instead of using magic (like fields).

quote:
Originally posted by IceFire
For FS2, as IP points out, Interceptors that shoot down incoming bolts would do things like performance hits and I can see a whole host of problems between capital ships switching between offense and defense...because...all of these craft use their offensive and defensive weapons in both fire mode types (the Hyperion from A Voice in the Wilderness Part 2 used its Plasma turrets on the aft quarter to shoot down incoming bolts as well as presumably return fire).

They are offensive weapons as well, quote from Severed Dreams (as enemy fighters are 'trying to outflank B5'): "Reset forward interceptors for long range dispersion fire." I think the performance hit could be kept reasonable or low... and why would there be problems with "using them in both fire mode types"? It's like saying there are problems with a cruiser targeting more than one fighter that are zipping around it. It shouldn't be too hard to define how to balance intercepting and offensive fire. Defensive orders would emphasize intercepting, all-out offense wouldn't bother with it.

quote:
Originally posted by IceFire
So I don't really see either being implemented in any big or grand way.

In that case you need to watch Severed Dreams (season 3) and The Fall of Night (season 2) again and after that try telling me it doesn't look great when interceptors stop incoming fire.

When their capacity for intercepting doesn't get overwhelmed, they can protect a ship from damage - I'd say they are worth trying to implement. (The only reason the forward cargo stablizer of B5 got shot off in tFoN was because there was too much incoming fire from the centauri warship...)

Posted by FlakBait on 04-09-2003 08:13 PM:

In Fall of Night weapons hits to the the Cantauri cruiser seemed to strike some form of shield. Implying that some races have more powerfull "energy web devices" probably related to their power generation systems.

Interceptors fire some form of shot whether it be a solid slug or a plasma projectile. If you shoot these at a fighter it will do damage. Having a weapons system that can only engage on type of target is pretty silly.

The Omega destroyers seem to have a number of smaller turrets that are probably able to track and engage fighters. Larger turrats probably can't travers fast enough to take out fighters. (Something I find disconcerting about the Nova.)

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Posted by Prophet on 04-09-2003 09:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jokoto
I still don't think there's a mystical 'field', there is no magical force field tech on EA ships.

No there is no magic in B5

Though Vorlons have some cheesy powers now that I think about it...

Anyway, EA ships might have some "structural integrity field" in critical parts of the hull. It may be just special armor, or it may be electronics that monitor the status of the armor and hull. And maybe even reduce the incoming damage at that point of the hull.
And I really am not talking about any ****ing Trek shields. Think about it. We have seen things, like the "shield" effect on the Primus youknowhenandwhere.
And things like interceptors indicate that energy weapon technology is advanced. That the races understand these weapons well enought in order to create so highly effective defences against them. The shots themselves are basicly just energy. So how hard would it be to come up with a some sort of a field that interferes with the energy of a incoming shot. Perhaps reducing it's damage before it impacts the hull.

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