VWBB - Mysterious Shivans: FS2 more Qs than As

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Posted by Crackerjack on 08-10-2002 08:46 PM:

Mysterious Shivans: FS2 more Qs than As

What is their origin? What is their motive? Why did they return, capture Bosch, destroy a star?

Iâ€™m a bit of a newbie here as far as posting messages as you can see, but Iâ€™ve been a proud member of the Freespace community since around â€™99 when I first got FS1. Iâ€™ve probably missed this topic before so I apologize if Iâ€™m reiterating old discussions.

Freespace 2 is the best space combat sim Iâ€™ve ever played, and its story is even more engaging than the first, although I do play FS1 a lot more, but ultimately in the end it leaves more questions than answers. That, I assume, is one of the main causes of grief over the failure to create another sequel: the answers to all these mysteries. FS2 did answer a few things in FS1, such as the purpose of the GTIâ€™s insurgency and experiments w/ Shivan technology; to find a means of communication (Boschâ€™s ETAK). Yet new and more mysterious things occur. The capture of Bosch. The 90 or more Sathanasâ€™, and their action of inducing Capella to go nova.

I find Admiral Petrarchâ€™s explanation at the end hard to believe; the Shivans were trying to get home and we were just getting in the way. Not likely; they sacrificed or left behind thousands of their own ships in the process. All the information in both games says that theyâ€™re trying to destroy us altogether, thereby stopping us completely from expanding into the rest of the galaxy.

I was flipping through the FS1 cutscenes, always disappointed that most of them were monologues of the Ancients (after all the cutscenes are the best opportunity to show action; my favorites were the Hall Fight and of course the End Game; they were even going to put in the attack on Tombaugh station, but they left it out: â€˜FS Bibleâ€™). It seemed a waste for a cutscene, nothing but a starscape and some narration, but once I started listening to them I learned a lot more about the Shivans.

The Ancients cutscenes were records of their empire and their demise at the hands of the Shivans, records that paralleled the Terran/Vasudan struggle. The last monologue by the human explained that the Shivans are also the great preservers. Essentially if a species becomes too powerful and expands too much, it will start to â€˜subdue and crushâ€™ any underdeveloped species it comes across. The Shivans are some sort of un/natural race created to maintain balance in the galaxy. Unfortunately the Shivans wonâ€™t just force you back, they will annihilate you totally, as stated in one of the Ancients monologues; they were forced to abandon their empire and were driven back to their home planet, but the Shivans still did not relent and apparently finished them off. The 3 Knossos portals in FS2 were likely part of the Ancientsâ€™ empire since they â€˜were not of Shivan designâ€™. In fact, now that I think of it, the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis could have been the remnants of a Shivan attack like the one on the Capella sun. What do you think?

Posted by karajorma on 08-10-2002 11:26 PM:

Absolutely nothing new there

Seriously though this topic has been done to death many times and it never goes anywhere.
Some of us think that that the shivans are great preservers while others (myself included) think that's a load of rubbish and that the shivans are either xenocidal or have another agenda we just haven`t figured out yet.

While Petrach and the ancients may speculate on the motives of the shivans that doesn`t mean that their theories are correct.

Anyway unless there is ever an official FS3 (don't ask. There is a whole section in my FAQ below about that!) we'll never know for certain.

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Posted by IceFire on 08-11-2002 03:27 AM:

Comes down to this basically.

We know so little about the Shivans that any speculation we do is just that. Speculation.

I thank you for basically presenting us facts and not a host of theories that contradict what facts we do know.

Basically this is what we know:

1) They are advanced and powerful (technology, weapons, etc.)
2) They have great numbers and potentially great resources (number of ships, the way in which they expend them)
3) They are seemingly designed for gravity environments (legs, arms, etc.) but they are in no way a terrestrial species based on what we know.
4) They have an affinity for subspace. They are drawn to it. They can manipulate it and travel it.
5) They know how to kill, hunt, and destroy effectively

I think those are pretty hard and fairly indesputable facts that we can come up with (and a dash of speculation). Essentially we still know nothing about them.

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Posted by Crackerjack on 08-11-2002 05:18 AM:

Interesting.

Thank you for your feedback; I'm afraid I've missed the last 2 years of posts on this and other boards. Both games have great storylines and excellent gameplay, but there was simply no closure in the end. That, I believe, is a major failing in telling a story; you should never leave the audience hanging, at least not indefinitely. Yes it is good to leave a little mystery behind to provoke thought, but we have been thinking and speculating now for at least 2 years, and there is still much unresolved.

Posted by Hudzy on 08-11-2002 12:12 PM:

I would say that the mystery has done more good than bad though. It has allowed many people like ourselves to expand upon the FreeSpace storyline with their own campaigns and ideas and that's why the game has lasted so long.

Posted by IceFire on 08-11-2002 01:51 PM:

Exactly...and along with some others, I am working on a project to try and "conclude" the FreeSpace storyline somewhat. Not directly canon...just based on what we can turn up from previous games.

Posted by Lady Rose on 08-11-2002 02:04 PM:

Yeah... Freespace 2 has good thing, that it opens more questions than it answers and this leaves always possibility of comeback...

I really hope FS3 would come, but you cant have everything...

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Posted by Crackerjack on 08-11-2002 02:49 PM:

A comeback, yes; absolutely! This game is screaming for another sequel. I don't know if Volition had any intention or not to continue the story (they certainly left room for it). In either case it has left a lot open for creativity, and I agree that has definitely kept the game alive.

Posted by F S W on 08-11-2002 06:51 PM:

I see the Shivans as a "police force" type thing. When they come across a species that is hostile to other species' the Shivans annihilate it so that that species cannot harm other, more innocent races in their infancy. See how the Shivans study the Terrans instead of attacking immediately in Hall Fight.

Posted by IceFire on 08-11-2002 08:50 PM:

quote:
I don't know if Volition had any intention or not to continue the story (they certainly left room for it).

Before everyone else pounces....yes V has, had, and hopefully will continue to have the intention of continuing the story. But business doesn't always work that way and basically after FS2 went out....that was the end of the line for FreeSpace and Interplay. Later, V was bought by THQ and Interplay was bought by Titus. Interplay seems to be a non-entity right now and FreeSpace is essentially dead....but things can change. Interplay goes down the tubes...THQ buys the rights and gives V the green light to do another FreeSpace.

Posted by Crackerjack on 08-12-2002 01:21 AM:

Thanks for clearing that up IceFire, I wasn't exactly sure about [V]'s plans. I have seen considerable discussion on the business troubles of Interplay and the status of all their game rights.

I tend to agree w/ F S W that the Shivans are a type of 'restriction' on the expansion of races within the galaxy, according to canonical references in the FS cutscenes.

Ancients 1: "And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it.
In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution. On a similar but slower path.

With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries."

End Game: "I know why the Ancient Ones were destroyed. And I know what they knew.

I know that if not for the Shivans they would have perished long before.

Without the Shivans, someone would have discovered them in their infancy, and eliminated them, just as surely as they eliminated countless billions of others." (FS Bible)

The Hall Fight cutscene is also an intriguing circumstance; the Shivans did not attack first.
The Shivans began their invasion in response to the use of subspace.

Posted by hayabusa on 08-12-2002 11:19 AM:

Shivans can also be nomads. I know it`s not the best solution and I write it in here just to announce there is such possibility ( though there are better explanations, I think) .
They can travel from system to system, attacking only the civilisations which got the substpace ability. Maybe, just maybe, they receive some kind of energy or something due to these attacks? Maybe (- because I think it is not so probable in that shape)they collect energy , or vital forces, or anything FROM subspace and the other`s subspace activity disturbs them?

... or something like that.

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Posted by Joe Curry on 08-12-2002 12:31 PM:

Is it not possible that the Shivans were created to protect the ancient ones, and that even thought the ancients are destroyed the shivans think they are still protecting them?

Posted by karajorma on 08-12-2002 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Joe Curry
Is it not possible that the Shivans were created to protect the ancient ones, and that even thought the ancients are destroyed the shivans think they are still protecting them?

Nope. It isn`t. The shivans aren`t the ancients nor were they created by them. Listen to the monologues again and you`ll see that the ancients kept expanding their empire until they came across the shivans. They tried to subdue them like they had all the other races before them but the shivans turned out to be a bad enemy to make.
Doesn`t leave much grey area for the ancients to have created the shivans.

Posted by GalacticEmperor on 08-12-2002 09:23 PM:

I'm in the 'great preservers' school of thought here, for reasons already mentioned. I'd just like to point out that the Shivans were named after the Hindu god Shiva. In Hindu, Shiva is known as the 'great destroyer' but ALSO as the 'great preserver.' Search the Net, look in the library, or talk to any follower of that religion; the parallells are uncanny.

Oh, and welcome to the VWBB, Crackerjack. If you'd like to play FS1 in the hi-res graphics of FS2, stop by [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/]my page.[/url] Hope to see you around!

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Posted by hayabusa on 08-13-2002 11:40 AM:

Shivans aren`t ancients, the monologues cleraed it out I think. There`s no sign of such possibility - although it is probable that Shivans were created long time ago by an unknown race, older than the Ancients, a race we know NOTHING about, because it existed too long time ago, or in too distant places, or has been annihilated too perfectly or anything.

It is possibile, that the Ancients are Vasudans. Probably they weren`t destroyed by the Shivans so totally though their knowledge and civilisation has been lost, just like it was after the Roman Empire had fallen. The people survived, but the civilisation and knowledge perished.

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Posted by karajorma on 08-13-2002 01:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by hayabusa
It is possibile, that the Ancients are Vasudans. Probably they weren`t destroyed by the Shivans so totally though their knowledge and civilisation has been lost, just like it was after the Roman Empire had fallen. The people survived, but the civilisation and knowledge perished.

Possible but not a theory I`d use in my campaigns though. I prefer to keep the ancients as a seperate (and probably extinct) race.

Posted by Azrael on 08-13-2002 02:17 PM:

Well i dont know if anyone has thought of this...but here goes...

what do ya think that all they are doing is protecting themselves. Up a post or three someone stated that subspace was the Shivans domain and they react to it. So what do you think about them protecting their nest?? The Terrans and and Co. just happened to ionvade their home unknowingly bringing the full force of the exterminators upon themselves?? maybe the same possibility with the Ancients. They found subspace and then got wiped out...kinda spooky huh?:P

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Posted by Pren on 08-14-2002 01:08 AM:

I dont think the shivans are in some retaliation for invading their space/nest or whatever, It states that the ancients had expanded their empire to some hefty lengths, so they must of been using subspace for quite a while. i would expect that if the shivans where protecting their space they would react quickly, plus it says that the ancients found the shivans.

Just to stur things up, i think the makers of the game added the posibilitys of pre history to the game. For example they assosiated the Vas with the egyptian civilization, although it was just ship names it still added some sort of mystery to the V. The same goes for the shivans, the developers of the game left the pre history of india open for speculation in association with the game. If this was intentional we'll never know but it makes the game a tad more interesting.

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Posted by Crackerjack on 08-14-2002 06:07 AM:

The new species was designated the Shivans by the Terrans and Vasudans because they fit the description of the Hindu god of destruction. It was simply to give them a name, just like Vasudan ships and wings were given Egyptian names by the Terrans, because the Vasudans inhabited a desert world, like the Egyptians. Vasudan is an original name because the two species were able to comunicate, and thus learn what they called themselves. The same goes for the Shivans; they most likely call themselves something totally different, but we don't know what that is since we've not been able to formally communicate w/ them.

I believe the relationship b/t Terrans/Vasudans and the Shivans is sealed, where no peace can ever exist w/ them. Bosch seemed to think otherwise, and look what happened. From Bosch's statements they did communicate w/ the Shivans (crude & rudimentry), but apparently the Shivans decieved them and killed hundreds on the Iceni while taking Bosch and his commanders.

At this point there are no facts that I can find to determine what the Shivans actually intended to do w/ Bosch and the others: interogate, torture, kill, experiment, imprison, or maybe a combination, you name it. Although some can be ruled out its hard to say exactly what their motives were.

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