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-- Balancing issues and proposal (https://volitionwatch.game-warden.com/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=6294)

Balancing issues and proposal

First off, balance should always lean in favor of playability and fun, even if "realism" needs to suffer.

The B5 universe is relatively unique in that it includes factions with vastly different technology levels and capabilities. Star Trek, Star Wars, Wing Commander, Freespace itself - all these have roughly similar orders of battle (with one or two special powers that eventually get distributed to all others). In B5, the older races are tremendously more powerful than the younger ones, which is difficult to model in a game that is supposed to be fun.

Another "problem" with powerful opponents is that this game is about fighters racing about and using light weaponry on other fighters, occasionally launching heavier standoff rockets at capital ships. Personally, I found the torpedo runs in Wing Commander some of the most white-knuckled and ultimately satisfying moments of my gaming career. Jinking around, trying to maintain lock while the phase shields were decoded, flak bursts knocking you around, then the buzzer and flashing - release the torpedo and get out of there while the Ralari brews up behind you. B5 has less missile weaponry and more capital ship battles. I think for the sake of gameplay, Starfuries or Badger bombers should have a really heavy missile they can use - perhaps two of them could bring down a Vorchan, four for a G'Quon, six or eight for a Sharlin, etc.

So far the game has shown this. It is very difficult to hit a Nial, and a Sharlin can take tons of punishment and dish out as much. The Minbari can be defeated, but it is hard which makes sense. However, it is impractical to use a Starfury cannon on a Minbvari warcruiser. We need more emphasis on heavy rockets which may not be exactly true to the show, but needed for "fun."What happens when the Shadows come into play? We have seen a single battlecrab with one beam destroying fleets. If one of these warped in the game would be over in practical terms. No fun. Here is my proposal:

The battlecrab tactic seems to be drift in out of hyperspace, hover near target and use slicer beam to obliterate target. We rarely see much in the way of maneuvering. Perhaps the battlecrab could be fast in a straight line, and slow to turn. Its beam is only in the front and it has no weaponry above, below, to the sides or behind. In terms of game mechanics, players could maneuver away from the beam and have time to pound it with rockets. Also, the telepath option could be shown by having a nonplayer ship with a cargo of Telepath that would drop the Shadow maneuverability by 75% or so when in a certain range (I think FRED can do that, or at least it can change speed on arrival of the telepath ship). This would allow us to play against the Shadows, see how powerful they are (the beam should have different strength against capital ships and fighters - a capship should be destroyed in three or four passes since in the show it required only one but a fighter should also sustain a few passes of the slicer beam or it will be no fun to play).

I am not sure if anybody cares what I think, but I am glad I have thrown it out there!

Balancing issues and proposal

First off, balance should always lean in favor of playability and fun, even if "realism" needs to suffer.

The B5 universe is relatively unique in that it includes factions with vastly different technology levels and capabilities. Star Trek, Star Wars, Wing Commander, Freespace itself - all these have roughly similar orders of battle (with one or two special powers that eventually get distributed to all others). In B5, the older races are tremendously more powerful than the younger ones, which is difficult to model in a game that is supposed to be fun.

Another "problem" with powerful opponents is that this game is about fighters racing about and using light weaponry on other fighters, occasionally launching heavier standoff rockets at capital ships. Personally, I found the torpedo runs in Wing Commander some of the most white-knuckled and ultimately satisfying moments of my gaming career. Jinking around, trying to maintain lock while the phase shields were decoded, flak bursts knocking you around, then the buzzer and flashing - release the torpedo and get out of there while the Ralari brews up behind you. B5 has less missile weaponry and more capital ship battles. I think for the sake of gameplay, Starfuries or Badger bombers should have a really heavy missile they can use - perhaps two of them could bring down a Vorchan, four for a G'Quon, six or eight for a Sharlin, etc.

So far the game has shown this. It is very difficult to hit a Nial, and a Sharlin can take tons of punishment and dish out as much. The Minbari can be defeated, but it is hard which makes sense. However, it is impractical to use a Starfury cannon on a Minbvari warcruiser. We need more emphasis on heavy rockets which may not be exactly true to the show, but needed for "fun."What happens when the Shadows come into play? We have seen a single battlecrab with one beam destroying fleets. If one of these warped in the game would be over in practical terms. No fun. Here is my proposal:

The battlecrab tactic seems to be drift in out of hyperspace, hover near target and use slicer beam to obliterate target. We rarely see much in the way of maneuvering. Perhaps the battlecrab could be fast in a straight line, and slow to turn. Its beam is only in the front and it has no weaponry above, below, to the sides or behind. In terms of game mechanics, players could maneuver away from the beam and have time to pound it with rockets. Also, the telepath option could be shown by having a nonplayer ship with a cargo of Telepath that would drop the Shadow maneuverability by 75% or so when in a certain range (I think FRED can do that, or at least it can change speed on arrival of the telepath ship). This would allow us to play against the Shadows, see how powerful they are (the beam should have different strength against capital ships and fighters - a capship should be destroyed in three or four passes since in the show it required only one but a fighter should also sustain a few passes of the slicer beam or it will be no fun to play).

I am not sure if anybody cares what I think, but I am glad I have thrown it out there!

well essentialy the only thing you should do when shadow ships arrive RUN FOR YOUR LIFE you cant take down a shadow with 3 or 4 ships you need allot of ships and i never saw fighters go against battlecrabs so i donno what would hapen

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well essentialy the only thing you should do when shadow ships arrive RUN FOR YOUR LIFE you cant take down a shadow with 3 or 4 ships you need allot of ships and i never saw fighters go against battlecrabs so i donno what would hapen

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Narn fighters did went against Shadow 'crabs at least twice, they got wiped out from the "sky" pretty quickly.

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Narn fighters did went against Shadow 'crabs at least twice, they got wiped out from the "sky" pretty quickly.

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I have peiced together that in the B5 universe fighters have the following functions:
1) Scout ahead of friendly forces looking for the baddies.
2) Engage in raiding activities against smaller targets (transports, shuttles), either for profit (raiders) or to disrupt enemy supply lines causing a re-allocation of resources to protect the rear.
3) Taking out subsystems and weapons of capital ships, to give friendly capital ships an easier time.
4) Prevent enemy fighters from doing 2 and 3.

If you don't like that, perhaps you should stick with watching the show.
As a side note, after playing FS1, and going guns only against Dragons, I found taking out Nials a whole lot easier.

__________________
Please don't hold our president against us-it's not like we voted for him.

I have peiced together that in the B5 universe fighters have the following functions:
1) Scout ahead of friendly forces looking for the baddies.
2) Engage in raiding activities against smaller targets (transports, shuttles), either for profit (raiders) or to disrupt enemy supply lines causing a re-allocation of resources to protect the rear.
3) Taking out subsystems and weapons of capital ships, to give friendly capital ships an easier time.
4) Prevent enemy fighters from doing 2 and 3.

If you don't like that, perhaps you should stick with watching the show.
As a side note, after playing FS1, and going guns only against Dragons, I found taking out Nials a whole lot easier.

__________________
Please don't hold our president against us-it's not like we voted for him.

Yeah, Nials are pretty easy to take down to compare it to Dragoons or then I'm hell of good pilot and that can't be true... or so I think.

In the other hand... I have many opinnions about my camp: "It is good, but damn hard" Hey I made those quite easy (or at least me) and tested them at medium. Are everybody else playing Hard or Insane or then there are something seriously wrong... something like me to be good pilot.

B5 most used technique is "Run and hope that they dont gought us!"

__________________
"Losing your temper is sign of worries or panic"
-Shogun Tokugawa

Aku. Soku. Zan.
-The wolves of Mibu, Shinsen gumi

Creator of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/miburo1]Tale of EAS Janus[/URL] campaign
Also leader of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/]Honor of Omega[/URL] campaign
FREDer and general errant boy of mighty [URL=http://http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/]Mind Games[/URL], which power no-one can escape. There is always a first time.

Yeah, Nials are pretty easy to take down to compare it to Dragoons or then I'm hell of good pilot and that can't be true... or so I think.

In the other hand... I have many opinnions about my camp: "It is good, but damn hard" Hey I made those quite easy (or at least me) and tested them at medium. Are everybody else playing Hard or Insane or then there are something seriously wrong... something like me to be good pilot.

B5 most used technique is "Run and hope that they dont gought us!"

__________________
"Losing your temper is sign of worries or panic"
-Shogun Tokugawa

Aku. Soku. Zan.
-The wolves of Mibu, Shinsen gumi

Creator of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/miburo1]Tale of EAS Janus[/URL] campaign
Also leader of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/]Honor of Omega[/URL] campaign
FREDer and general errant boy of mighty [URL=http://http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/]Mind Games[/URL], which power no-one can escape. There is always a first time.

quote:

---

1) Scout ahead of friendly forces looking for the baddies.
2) Engage in raiding activities against smaller targets (transports, shuttles), either for profit (raiders) or to disrupt enemy supply lines causing a re-allocation of resources to protect the rear.
3) Taking out subsystems and weapons of capital ships, to give friendly capital ships an easier time.
4) Prevent enemy fighters from doing 2 and 3.

---

__________________
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Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

quote:

---

1) Scout ahead of friendly forces looking for the baddies.
2) Engage in raiding activities against smaller targets (transports, shuttles), either for profit (raiders) or to disrupt enemy supply lines causing a re-allocation of resources to protect the rear.
3) Taking out subsystems and weapons of capital ships, to give friendly capital ships an easier time.
4) Prevent enemy fighters from doing 2 and 3.

---

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FlakBait
If you don't like that, perhaps you should stick with watching the show.

Like I said, sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay. Surely I am not the only one who got bored with fly to waypoint-kill fighters-fly to waypoint-kill fighters-etc.

Think of the misisons in Tie Fighter, possibly the greatest game of space combat ever. Yes, most of the time you were going against starfighters, but in the background was a hugely complex mission with capital ships warping in and out, assault boats maneuvering to capture ships, flights of rockets on intercepts - and sometimes you would be called in to help take down a warship with bombs or rockets. I agree that in the canon of the show fighters are definitely underpowered, and are better suited for subsystem destruction, but certainly you need something a little more powerful than a brace of PPGs to destroy a Tinashi fusion reactor or an Omega XRay laser.

By the way, you would probably never speak so harshly to someone you had just met in real life. We are all on the same side here - we like this universe and we look forward to flying and fighting in it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FlakBait
If you don't like that, perhaps you should stick with watching the show.

Like I said, sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay. Surely I am not the only one who got bored with fly to waypoint-kill fighters-fly to waypoint-kill fighters-etc.

Think of the misisons in Tie Fighter, possibly the greatest game of space combat ever. Yes, most of the time you were going against starfighters, but in the background was a hugely complex mission with capital ships warping in and out, assault boats maneuvering to capture ships, flights of rockets on intercepts - and sometimes you would be called in to help take down a warship with bombs or rockets. I agree that in the canon of the show fighters are definitely underpowered, and are better suited for subsystem destruction, but certainly you need something a little more powerful than a brace of PPGs to destroy a Tinashi fusion reactor or an Omega XRay laser.

By the way, you would probably never speak so harshly to someone you had just met in real life. We are all on the same side here - we like this universe and we look forward to flying and fighting in it.

B5 fighters are not underpowered!

A wing Aurora starfuries can damage Centauri Primus and Vorchan warships pretty well.

Point is that cap ships does take damage from fighter fire.
Point is that cap ships needs fighter cover to defend themselves against enemy fighters.
Point is that fighter wing can take out enemy warship's weapons and engines out of commission with sustained fire quickly enough to make them serious threat to a cap ship without fighter cover.

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B5 fighters are not underpowered!

A wing Aurora starfuries can damage Centauri Primus and Vorchan warships pretty well.

Point is that cap ships does take damage from fighter fire.
Point is that cap ships needs fighter cover to defend themselves against enemy fighters.
Point is that fighter wing can take out enemy warship's weapons and engines out of commission with sustained fire quickly enough to make them serious threat to a cap ship without fighter cover.

__________________
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Individual fighters can't do this on their own neither in the show or in TBP. To do so you either need to co-ordinate your fighter wings and/or get them armed with missiles (just look in Fred 2 for them). I think the balance so far is great and no doubt Shadow ships will be virtually impossible to kill without the use of telepaths. That said, half of any given mission could be trying to get the telepaths to survive/get into position. If you are up against Shadow vessels with anything less than half a dozen Sharlins then basically I think you should have to run away or die.

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

Individual fighters can't do this on their own neither in the show or in TBP. To do so you either need to co-ordinate your fighter wings and/or get them armed with missiles (just look in Fred 2 for them). I think the balance so far is great and no doubt Shadow ships will be virtually impossible to kill without the use of telepaths. That said, half of any given mission could be trying to get the telepaths to survive/get into position. If you are up against Shadow vessels with anything less than half a dozen Sharlins then basically I think you should have to run away or die.

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Triggy
...you should have to run away or die.

---

__________________
"Losing your temper is sign of worries or panic"
-Shogun Tokugawa

Aku. Soku. Zan.
-The wolves of Mibu, Shinsen gumi

Creator of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/miburo1]Tale of EAS Janus[/URL] campaign
Also leader of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/]Honor of Omega[/URL] campaign
FREDer and general errant boy of mighty [URL=http://http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/]Mind Games[/URL], which power no-one can escape. There is always a first time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triggy
...you should have to run away or die.

---

__________________
"Losing your temper is sign of worries or panic"
-Shogun Tokugawa

Aku. Soku. Zan.
-The wolves of Mibu, Shinsen gumi

Creator of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/miburo1]Tale of EAS Janus[/URL] campaign
Also leader of [URL=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/]Honor of Omega[/URL] campaign
FREDer and general errant boy of mighty [URL=http://http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/]Mind Games[/URL], which power no-one can escape. There is always a first time.