VWBB - Muhharrahaaahaa (minutes later Weeping)

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Posted by nct000335 on 01-21-2002 05:33 PM:

Muhharrahaaahaa (minutes later Weeping)

I have just recently upgraded to a 1.4 GHz AMD Athlon, with 256mb Ram and a 20 gig HD. Unfortunately within minutes of setting up the damn thing is broke. I have some kind of software issue involving windows 98. The problem is it wont load up. The thing switches on and bios seems find, but half way through loading up the thing stops and just keeps showing the Win98 load screen for as long as I kept it on, which was about one hour. I wonder if anyone can help. I dont have any of the original drivers so reinstalling win98 is out, PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!

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Posted by IceFire on 01-21-2002 05:48 PM:

Any of the original drivers for what?

Sounds like one of two problems.

1) An operating system problem require Windows to be removed and reinstalled. Make sure you backup your stuff and then reformat.

2) There is a hardware problem with one of the new components. Check the temperature of the chip (should show in the bios) over the course of 5-10 minutes. If its getting upwards of 60-70 C then you have problems.

AMD's do run hotter than Intel chips, but they shouldn't be able to cook bacon on them.

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Posted by haderak on 01-21-2002 10:57 PM:

Whats impressive about the AMD processors is that they work flawessly till extreme temperatures right untill they blow up! Thats right , and I speak from personal experience.

W98 freezing on startup reminds me of something...me having problems with memory modules.

If you reboot a few times and get a message like this: "windows error protection" start considering this hyphotesys.

if you reboot in safe mode and get a HIMEM.SYS memory manger error message: "unreliable memory module found at ######" then thats it you got a defective memory module.
And it happens a lot more frequently than most people believe (OEM modules).

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Posted by Alphakiller on 01-21-2002 11:48 PM:

actually haderak, I've seen heat-based errors in Thunderbirds above ~66C. They don't get physically damaged until 90C...Of course, some chips are different than others, some work great at high temps, some get screwy.

Where'd you get the RAM from? Make sure it's in the right slot (I assume w/ 256 you only got 1 stick, so make sure it's in the slot your motherboard reccomends (e.g. the "first" RAM slot 99% of the time)

Try to boot into safe mode, see if you can get it to do that.

(Icefire, by 'original drivers' I bet he means his W98 CD)

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Posted by nct000335 on 01-22-2002 12:40 PM:

Sure do Alphakiller, I dont have the win98 CD as the program was preinstalled (damn budget computers). I have no alternative now but to go out and by a proper OS. I dont think it any of the hardware but it could be the HD, as it did seem a bit glitchy.

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Posted by Triggy on 01-22-2002 01:28 PM:

It is actually illegal for a company to install an OS without giving you a hard copy of it (i.e. A licenced copy). Either that or it is illegal to install an illegal copy on your computer. I know many companies do it to save on costs but to be honest I would always want a copy of the OS, just for situations like this.

The solution may involve actually going out and purchasing an OS (an opportunity to get the superior XP).

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Posted by Londo Molari on 01-22-2002 02:00 PM:

If you have the option, try installing another OS like XP and see if the problem persists... if not then its Win98 problem, if problem is still there, then its a hardware issue, and U should go talk to the ppl who sold it to you, hopefully U have a warentee of some kind.

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Posted by Coconut Joe on 01-22-2002 05:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Alphakiller
I've seen heat-based errors in Thunderbirds above ~66C. They don't get physically damaged until 90C...Of course, some chips are different than others, some work great at high temps, some get screwy.

I have had your problem myself. What happened to me was the power socket for my CPU fan blew itself up. The temperature of my chip reached 140C. Amazingly the chip was not damaged. I had to plug the CPU fan into my power supply direcly through an adapter.

If you can find out the temperature of your chip through the BIOS then that would answer if it is a CPU temperature problem.

There is one other thing. I think that incident caused my temperature sensor to mess up. From that day on my system reckons it is running between 90C and 110C degrees!. I think not!

If it turns out not to be temperature related then my guess would be that it is a dodgy install of Windows. I always prefer to do my own installation. I never trust these companies to do it right. I think the worst one in the UK is Time Computers. Urrgh!

Posted by ShadowBoy on 01-22-2002 06:27 PM:

win xp? superior? Than ME maybe....

The only reason I'm not running Linux is because it was hard enough to find any copy of most of my games, much less a linux compatible version.

I have NEVER liked the horribly buggy microsoft products, and whoever decided to sell them the rights to the Mechwarrior series should be shot. All the mechwarrior games up through three at least pretended to follow the rules of Battletech. 4 threw them out the window.

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Posted by Triggy on 01-22-2002 08:32 PM:

I only think that XP is the best Microsoft OS. I have no experience of linux, or others so can't comment except to say that as a games player, every game is written to be Windows compatible. Can you say the same for linux?

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Posted by IceFire on 01-22-2002 09:46 PM:

If your a non-anti-Microsoft type person and/or you must have a Windows product, XP is the best of the bunch hands down. Unless you think Microsoft is spying on you through it....in that case, get a tank and shoot the MLB Sattelite...oh wait, that was Simpsons!

Whatever you do, don't buy ME!

Posted by haderak on 01-22-2002 10:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Alphakiller
actually haderak, I've seen heat-based errors in Thunderbirds above ~66C. They don't get physically damaged until 90C...Of course, some chips are different than others, some work great at high temps, some get screwy.

Where'd you get the RAM from? Make sure it's in the right slot (I assume w/ 256 you only got 1 stick, so make sure it's in the slot your motherboard reccomends (e.g. the "first" RAM slot 99% of the time)

Try to boot into safe mode, see if you can get it to do that.

(Icefire, by 'original drivers' I bet he means his W98 CD)

Your basicaly contradicting all experience I have in that field. 66Âº might afect old athlons and perhaps some of the durons versions as the ship is not manufactured the same way. All recent Athlons will cope with over 70Âº without showing any errors. Untill they blow up.
I had one 1200 T-bird that blew up at 102Âº. (now I got another one)

errors may occur when you build one of these new systems with a 230 or 260W power supply, thats very common. Its frequent that on top of that the system comes with a cheapo heat sink, these 2 factors will kill the CPU pretty quikly, as a low Wattage power supply will mess up with the feeding of the CPU.

When I talked about the memory I forgot to mention that the problems I had hapenned once 5 days later the purchase and the other was 1 month later and even other almost 5 months later. It wasnst caused by the assembly DUH!!!

I would've noticed right away and corrected. Memory malfuntions will cause crashes and/or OS hang up at startup, And might happen a day or years after.

Posted by Alphakiller on 01-23-2002 04:23 AM:

Haderak: Well, your experience isn't my experience. This was an AYJHA Thunderbird (or whatever), 1400MHz, not overclocked, and I was getting errors when my KT7A's thermositer thing read 66C. The problem is, I think it read low (because it read my case temp low too) so if I had to guess it was more like 72C true.

Oh yeah, and my PSU is a 350w Enermax.

Still, it's all golden now...one, I reseated my heatsink, two, I'm running an 8KHA+ now.

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Posted by IceFire on 01-23-2002 05:03 AM:

Some chips just don't take the heat like others. I'm not taking about varients, different clock settings, or anything. I'm talking about two seemingly identical chips. One can hack it, the other can't.

I've seen it more than once. I call it the defectiveness factor. When you put your computer together, you want to keep your defectivenss factor such that it either contradicts itself (thus your computer works) or it is relatively high so it doesn't crash

Posted by Alphakiller on 01-23-2002 07:08 AM:

IceFire's right. Even different batches of the same video cards have weirdly different 2D quality. I mean, some guy I know got a Leadtek GF3 with crap 2D video quality, many others got Leadtek GF3s with good 2D. Doesn't make any sense to me...

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Posted by haderak on 01-24-2002 12:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Alphakiller
Haderak: Well, your experience isn't my experience. This was an AYJHA Thunderbird (or whatever), 1400MHz, not overclocked, and I was getting errors when my KT7A's thermositer thing read 66C. The problem is, I think it read low (because it read my case temp low too) so if I had to guess it was more like 72C true.

Oh yeah, and my PSU is a 350w Enermax.

Your might be misleading yourself... because for your information any system can crash during startup if the SYSTEMS MOTHERBOARD IS HOT TOO or just not as satble as others.Its known they are the stability "botleneck" of the systems. Many motherboards will hang the system before the CPU is even afected. They heat up too, when you get 66Âº youll probably have by then reached your motherboards stable limits. 70% of the times theres a system(not Os) hang its the motherboads stability issue kicking in.
the tables for temps of AMD CPU's states: MAXIMUM OPERATING TEPERATURE, and is about 90Âº, if it is OPERATING TEMPERATURE it means it operates... duh! its not operating if its jammed, those tempereature figures are given in funtion of probability of CPU errors being very low at that temp.
actual silicon fisical limit temp is a tad higher than that, but the difference is not much (5Âº to 10Âº that, inside the safty limits).
You didnt know this did you?
Press release tests indicates that theres a large number of AMD systems out there working at 50Âº and 60Âº with anbient temp set on 22Âº for reference, at summer time it would mean that 50% of the PC's would not function!!!

What icefire sayd is true if you want to go over the specs, thus its not intended to be taken in consideration if you have it in normal mode. Even cheap system with poor cooling will work but off course at temps of arround 60Âº.

Posted by IceFire on 01-24-2002 01:44 AM:

Umm...your chip is going to heat faster than your mobo. No two ways about that one

Usually its the chip that fuses itself to the mobo, not the other way around

Posted by haderak on 01-24-2002 04:03 PM:

mobos as far as I can tell are more sensitive than CPU's because they have to interconnect all the variuos hardware. They heat up too but thats only one of the many causes of their instability. Comparing the temps that each one of these 2 components have is nonsense, the CPU will endure more everytime. Thats why i'm very picky in choosing motherboards, although I'm not a specialist myself I choose the hardware for its rep. in stability. I have read many complaits about mobos issues, and press releases about that. Plus I have one friend who owns an assembly shop and often I contribute with my experience in locating malfuntions and solve them, in return I got more experiense in assembling them and burn test them. (also play starcraft in multiplayer mode with the custumers pc's! )

Posted by Alphakiller on 01-24-2002 04:10 PM:

Let me say this, then.
I've never heard of a problem being tracked down to motherboard overheating, simply because ... every time someone had a heat error, they replaced their heatsink and poof, fixed. Heatsinks cool the CPU (well, w/ a fan anyway ) ... not the motherboard. Similarly, the way thermodynamics work, there's literally no way a motherboard can get to, say, 70C unless the chip is at like 110C ... in which case, it's melted. The ONLY time I've seen motherboard damage because of an overheating CPU is that Tom's video where he took the heatsink off an Athlon running at full tilt, it smoked the chip first, then the motherboard at extreme heat levels - like 200C or something.

Similarly, because AMD hasn't put out a chip with an on-die thermositer, temp readings are wildly inaccurate, so someone's board reading 70C and getting errors could be 75, 80C in reality. So you can't trust your own numbers, which reallllllllly sucks.

In my case, I got funny errors, rebooted, waited a few minutes, and it was fine. - for a while. I isolated variables (3D card, etc) to make sure it was the CPU, and when I got a new heatsink (mmm, PAL8045) it's never done anything since. Ergo, empirically I can say it was CPU overheating.

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