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Fighters and Capital Ships

Ok, ignoring a game balance situation how many fighters do you think compare to a capital ship in terms of firepower, toughness and general combat ability. Now obviously the capital ships have more armour and weapons and less manoeuvrability but I was thinking in terms of does a wing of Starfuries/Thunderbolts compare to a Hyperion/Omega or would several dozen fighters be needed to represent a roughly equal combat force.

This question also applies to other race's fighters and capital ships, mainly the Minbari, Centauri and Narn.

I am not asking this out of trying to create another vs. thread but more out of curiosity to see the relative balance between different fleets (e.g. were the forces in Severed Dreams fairly equal with B5's plethora of fighters against the extra two Hyperion Cruisers on Clark's side?).

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Fighters and Capital Ships

Ok, ignoring a game balance situation how many fighters do you think compare to a capital ship in terms of firepower, toughness and general combat ability. Now obviously the capital ships have more armour and weapons and less manoeuvrability but I was thinking in terms of does a wing of Starfuries/Thunderbolts compare to a Hyperion/Omega or would several dozen fighters be needed to represent a roughly equal combat force.

This question also applies to other race's fighters and capital ships, mainly the Minbari, Centauri and Narn.

I am not asking this out of trying to create another vs. thread but more out of curiosity to see the relative balance between different fleets (e.g. were the forces in Severed Dreams fairly equal with B5's plethora of fighters against the extra two Hyperion Cruisers on Clark's side?).

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Role of fighters in a battle:
1) Protect friendly capital ships from enemy fighters.
2) Cripple hostile capital ships.

A number of starfuries can destroy a capital ship relatively easy if they are not targeted. See episode where a Vorchan is en route to blow up B5's jump gate, the Vorchan was destroyed by starfuries but it took some time. Also starfuries caused pretty good damage to Primus cruiser in Fall of Night (correct episode?) and then B5 finished the cruiser off.

Capital ships and fighters have different role in a battlefield, in my opinion you just can't compare them in terms of firepower.

Fighters can destroy a capital ship but they will do it much easier if they cripple it first, by destroying weapons and interceptors. But another capital ship can do the job much better after the interceptors are down.

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Role of fighters in a battle:
1) Protect friendly capital ships from enemy fighters.
2) Cripple hostile capital ships.

A number of starfuries can destroy a capital ship relatively easy if they are not targeted. See episode where a Vorchan is en route to blow up B5's jump gate, the Vorchan was destroyed by starfuries but it took some time. Also starfuries caused pretty good damage to Primus cruiser in Fall of Night (correct episode?) and then B5 finished the cruiser off.

Capital ships and fighters have different role in a battlefield, in my opinion you just can't compare them in terms of firepower.

Fighters can destroy a capital ship but they will do it much easier if they cripple it first, by destroying weapons and interceptors. But another capital ship can do the job much better after the interceptors are down.

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Most basic meaning of fighters in B5 is to draw fire away from own Capital ships...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lady Rose
Most basic meaning of fighters in B5 is to draw fire away from own Capital ships...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lady Rose
Most basic meaning of fighters in B5 is to draw fire away from own Capital ships...

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I know that fighters and capital ships have very different battlefield roles but that doesn't prevent say 20 Starfuries from taking on an Omega Destroyer. The Starfury vs Primus combat shows the balance quite well and the Starfury vs Vorchan combat has some value but is not that enlightening as the Vorchan is on a set course and does not fight back.

Often you see fighter attack runs on B5 and causing a moderate amount of damage (e.g. the C&C takes quite a pounding) and there are other battles such as in Between the Darkness and the Light where the White Star fleet has no fighter escort and seems to suffer badly at the hands of the Thunderbolts as much as due to the Omega-X Destroyers.

I get the feeling that fighters become a lot more dangerous to a large target (capital ship/space station) once all of the enemy fighters have been eliminated and are free to attack without the distraction of enemy fighters dogfighting them.

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I know that fighters and capital ships have very different battlefield roles but that doesn't prevent say 20 Starfuries from taking on an Omega Destroyer. The Starfury vs Primus combat shows the balance quite well and the Starfury vs Vorchan combat has some value but is not that enlightening as the Vorchan is on a set course and does not fight back.

Often you see fighter attack runs on B5 and causing a moderate amount of damage (e.g. the C&C takes quite a pounding) and there are other battles such as in Between the Darkness and the Light where the White Star fleet has no fighter escort and seems to suffer badly at the hands of the Thunderbolts as much as due to the Omega-X Destroyers.

I get the feeling that fighters become a lot more dangerous to a large target (capital ship/space station) once all of the enemy fighters have been eliminated and are free to attack without the distraction of enemy fighters dogfighting them.

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In groups, the fighter can overwhelm bigger ships because they are less maneuvarable and if anti fighter weapons are gone then its dead.

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Yeah, you guys have the right picture. Essentially...what JMS said was that fighters are there to take out the critical systems...target weapons, sensors, command decks, and then let larger vessels finish the target off.

I suppose enough fighters firing would take out even a capital ship. Add some additional warheads into the mix and your set.

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Yeah, you guys have the right picture. Essentially...what JMS said was that fighters are there to take out the critical systems...target weapons, sensors, command decks, and then let larger vessels finish the target off.

I suppose enough fighters firing would take out even a capital ship. Add some additional warheads into the mix and your set.

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quote:

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Quote from The Lurker's Guide - Severed Dreams - JMS speaks

If you're opening a jump point, usually you make it a habit to have all your fighters on board or else risk leaving them behind. A jump gate can be more easily used and held open for fighters. When you arrive at your destination, you can launch your fighters as you emerge.

"Why was it impossible to jump into hyperspace (in the beginning of the show) and not take the Starfuries with the ship? We've seen it done before."
No, I don't believe so. You've seen a jump GATE used, but that's different from a jump POINT which basically closes right behind the ship like a rabbit pulling its hole in after it. If the ships stayed behind to protect its rear, they'd be left behind. Ships coming out of a jump point into normal space sometimes will let their fighters zip out AS they're coming out, alongside the main ship.


In "Severed Dreams," the dilemma faced by the Alexander in the teaser is that if they jump, they'll end up leaving their fighters behind. A jump engine rips the area open for that one ship, and closes it again right behind it. What sometimes happens, as in "All Alone," is that *as a ship comes out*, it releases its fighters. But you can't just follow a ship into a jump point formed by another ship. You'd probably get torn apart when space folded back on you, because the field opening the point is primarily around the other ship.

Why didn't they shut down the jumpgate? Why did the EA ships use it?
The answer to both your questions is about the same. It takes about a day to power down, or power up a jump gate. It operates more like a fusion reactor than a light bulb. So not only wasn't there enough time, even if they *had* had enough time, you'd want to leave the gate up and running in case you needed to evacuate for any reason; otherwise you'd cut off your main escape route.
For the incoming fleet, knowing the gate was active was the way to go, since it would let them launch their fighters prior to coming in; if you use a jump point, you kinda have to launch while you're coming out to avoid anyone being stuck behind.


What good are small fighters if it's the big ships that decide the battle?
A lot more ships came in with the Roanoke and the Agrippa, support ships and others. Probably more breaching pods. They took out those. They're also used to keep the enemy starfuries from disabling the defense grid on the station, leaving B5 free to use its weapons on the larger target/worse threat. They're often used to soften up the enemy, harrass them like a pack of hounds falling on a prey. In "Fall of Night," we saw a Centauri vessel in large measure taken out by the Starfuries with some B5 support. So they definitely play a part.

Starfuries serve a *lot* of functions which we've shown before on the series.
They can take out a ship's defensive screens and countermeasures, allowing access by the big ships' armaments. In a group, they can take out a good sized ship on their own (a la the Centauri cruiser in "Fall of Night"). They also serve to protect the station's defense grid from aggressor starfuries.

Also, a number of small support ships, including a Hyperion class ship came through as part of the "carrier group" that went after the station. It was up to the starfuries to take care of those ships while B5 and the other destroyers took out the biggest threats.

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quote:

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Quote from The Lurker's Guide - Severed Dreams - JMS speaks

If you're opening a jump point, usually you make it a habit to have all your fighters on board or else risk leaving them behind. A jump gate can be more easily used and held open for fighters. When you arrive at your destination, you can launch your fighters as you emerge.

"Why was it impossible to jump into hyperspace (in the beginning of the show) and not take the Starfuries with the ship? We've seen it done before."
No, I don't believe so. You've seen a jump GATE used, but that's different from a jump POINT which basically closes right behind the ship like a rabbit pulling its hole in after it. If the ships stayed behind to protect its rear, they'd be left behind. Ships coming out of a jump point into normal space sometimes will let their fighters zip out AS they're coming out, alongside the main ship.


In "Severed Dreams," the dilemma faced by the Alexander in the teaser is that if they jump, they'll end up leaving their fighters behind. A jump engine rips the area open for that one ship, and closes it again right behind it. What sometimes happens, as in "All Alone," is that *as a ship comes out*, it releases its fighters. But you can't just follow a ship into a jump point formed by another ship. You'd probably get torn apart when space folded back on you, because the field opening the point is primarily around the other ship.

Why didn't they shut down the jumpgate? Why did the EA ships use it?
The answer to both your questions is about the same. It takes about a day to power down, or power up a jump gate. It operates more like a fusion reactor than a light bulb. So not only wasn't there enough time, even if they *had* had enough time, you'd want to leave the gate up and running in case you needed to evacuate for any reason; otherwise you'd cut off your main escape route.
For the incoming fleet, knowing the gate was active was the way to go, since it would let them launch their fighters prior to coming in; if you use a jump point, you kinda have to launch while you're coming out to avoid anyone being stuck behind.


What good are small fighters if it's the big ships that decide the battle?
A lot more ships came in with the Roanoke and the Agrippa, support ships and others. Probably more breaching pods. They took out those. They're also used to keep the enemy starfuries from disabling the defense grid on the station, leaving B5 free to use its weapons on the larger target/worse threat. They're often used to soften up the enemy, harrass them like a pack of hounds falling on a prey. In "Fall of Night," we saw a Centauri vessel in large measure taken out by the Starfuries with some B5 support. So they definitely play a part.

Starfuries serve a *lot* of functions which we've shown before on the series.
They can take out a ship's defensive screens and countermeasures, allowing access by the big ships' armaments. In a group, they can take out a good sized ship on their own (a la the Centauri cruiser in "Fall of Night"). They also serve to protect the station's defense grid from aggressor starfuries.

Also, a number of small support ships, including a Hyperion class ship came through as part of the "carrier group" that went after the station. It was up to the starfuries to take care of those ships while B5 and the other destroyers took out the biggest threats.

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As long as the fighter are very close(preferrably on the side) to jumping ship it shouldn't be a prob but if they are too far ahead or lag behind then they could be destroyed by the opening jumppoint. An example of this was seen in the last episode of Crusade, were the Excalibur forced the drakh ms to jump and the fighters had to stick to the excalibur to enter the jumppoint or be left behind.

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As long as the fighter are very close(preferrably on the side) to jumping ship it shouldn't be a prob but if they are too far ahead or lag behind then they could be destroyed by the opening jumppoint. An example of this was seen in the last episode of Crusade, were the Excalibur forced the drakh ms to jump and the fighters had to stick to the excalibur to enter the jumppoint or be left behind.

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Fighters should also be used to flush enemy fighters out of weakly defended or unprotected airspace. A capital ship's defence grid cannot cover every inch of airspace around it and the problem gets worse as the ship gets bigger. I image something as big has B5 has holes in it's defence grid when you get up close and personal with it.

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Fighters should also be used to flush enemy fighters out of weakly defended or unprotected airspace. A capital ship's defence grid cannot cover every inch of airspace around it and the problem gets worse as the ship gets bigger. I image something as big has B5 has holes in it's defence grid when you get up close and personal with it.

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About the Vorchan: they are not specialy equiped with anti-fighter weapons so even if it tried to destroy the starfuries, it would fail. but still fighters play a big role in B5(though not as big as in starwars or freespace) and they can easelly take out a cap-ship(nials killing a nova or a hyperon).

P.S. Ithink Whitestars have 3 to 5 nials but I've never seen 'em being used in the show.

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About the Vorchan: they are not specialy equiped with anti-fighter weapons so even if it tried to destroy the starfuries, it would fail. but still fighters play a big role in B5(though not as big as in starwars or freespace) and they can easelly take out a cap-ship(nials killing a nova or a hyperon).

P.S. Ithink Whitestars have 3 to 5 nials but I've never seen 'em being used in the show.

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