VWBB - License Question + I Have a New Mirror

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VWBB (https://volitionwatch.game-warden.com/vwbb/index.php)
- FreeSpace 1/2 MODs Discussion (https://volitionwatch.game-warden.com/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=40)
-- License Question + I Have a New Mirror (https://volitionwatch.game-warden.com/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=6073)

Posted by EvilTypeGuy on 04-26-2002 03:15 PM:

License Question + I Have a New Mirror

First, let me say thanks to the people at volition. I've purchased their games since they were part of Parallax, Descent was one of the first games I played and I loved it. Back in the days of Kali Central... I want to say 95ish? Back when there was a descent channel on efnet where people actually talked

I also used to help run a community site, which as of the last year or so we've let run into the ground (work...work...work...) due to Work That Pays(TM)....

http://www.warpcore.org/

Which I'm sure some of you may/may not remember the site. We still host the Invitational Descent Ladder http://idl.warpcore.org/, the Pyro Pilots Guild http://www.pyropilots.org/, and the Descent 1 source code project...

http://d1x.warpcore.org/

The Freespace games were great, and still are! I hope that Volition/Outrage both continue to succeed and make games they've always wanted to...

Now to the real purposes of my message. First, while the copyright header makes it explicitly clear that we cannot commercially exploit Volition's code, it does not explicitly give us the right to modify/distribute it. This concerns me, I feel as if what is allowed should have been explicitly spelled out. Don't get me wrong, i'm thankful for the release. But I also am aware of the ugly legal environment that currently exists in today's economy.

Secondly, I've mirrored the latest (to my knowledge) public release of the source on my personal warpcore.org account, here:

http://drevil.warpcore.org/freespace2_public_4_24_02.zip

Thanks to all...

Oh one more thing, anyone else here wanting to port this to Linux? If so, please contact me at drevil@warpcore.org, i'd be glad to host the project on warpcore.org, website and CVS both. As well as contribute code when I have time...

Posted by EvilTypeGuy on 04-26-2002 03:15 PM:

License Question + I Have a New Mirror

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 04:58 PM:

Re: License Question + I Have a New Mirror

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTypeGuy

Oh one more thing, anyone else here wanting to port this to Linux? If so, please contact me at drevil@warpcore.org, i'd be glad to host the project on warpcore.org, website and CVS both. As well as contribute code when I have time...

Me and/or Kazan plan to put it on SourceForge, so it'll probably go there if anywhere.

As for the license, that worries me too. I don't understand why they don't GPL it, like id does with their old games, but they probably have a good reason - at least to them

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 04:58 PM:

Re: License Question + I Have a New Mirror

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTypeGuy

Oh one more thing, anyone else here wanting to port this to Linux? If so, please contact me at drevil@warpcore.org, i'd be glad to host the project on warpcore.org, website and CVS both. As well as contribute code when I have time...

Posted by Spike on 04-26-2002 05:20 PM:

Hopefully someone can get an okay from Volition or whoever for a project to be setup on SourceForge..
I'd like to see the version we start with put up on CVS, then people can start hacking away, submit patches/diffs.. since having a good central copy is obviously useful for modders everywhere. (not to mention that we'd have a record of the changes in diffs, without that alot of people will just make a mess of the code)

Spike

Posted by Spike on 04-26-2002 05:20 PM:

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 06:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike
Hopefully someone can get an okay from Volition or whoever for a project to be setup on SourceForge.

Spike

Well daveb did say that as long as we didn't try to sell it, we should have no problems, and SourceForge is just about the farthest thing away from selling it.

However, official word would be nice (hint hint, Dave

)

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 06:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike
Hopefully someone can get an okay from Volition or whoever for a project to be setup on SourceForge.

Spike

Well daveb did say that as long as we didn't try to sell it, we should have no problems, and SourceForge is just about the farthest thing away from selling it.

However, official word would be nice (hint hint, Dave

)

Posted by neimad on 04-26-2002 06:58 PM:

SourceForge requires that your project be open source though, doesn't it? So that basically means it needs to be distributed under the GNU or MPL or something like that, which I highly doubt V would let you do since the code is still their property.

<Edit>
SourceForge requires that your software be "open source", i.e. distributed under a license that grants *anyone* the right to pretty much do as they please with the source code (this is a very vague defenition, which is probably inaccurate, but you get the point).

Now since V didn't release the source under an open source "compatible" license, then the source it's self *isn't* open source, and so cannot be placed on SourceForge.

DaveB: honestly, can you say that you've read a _single_ license agreement that made absolute sense, in that you understood without a doubt what you could and couldn't do? I sure haven't, but as far as readability goes... that license is one of the nicer ones.
</Edit>

Neimad

Posted by neimad on 04-26-2002 06:58 PM:

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 07:29 PM:

Well, public source is nearly (but not quite) open source. Which is why we want a clarification of exactly what we can do with it.

Posted by daveb on 04-26-2002 07:49 PM:

It should be pretty clear. You're not allowed to sell it (or anything derived from it) or otherwise use it comercially.

BTW, if you're not using the updated zip file (released yesterday) you don't have this info. Make sure to grab the newest set of source files - the copyright and usage stuff is spelled out pretty clearly there.

Posted by daveb on 04-26-2002 07:49 PM:

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 08:42 PM:

We can't put it on SourceForge then, I don't think SourceForge allows a license that prohibits any and all commercial use.

Anyplace else someone knows of to put it with similar features (most importantly CVS access and bug/feature tracker)?warpcore.org seems in a bad state right now so I don't think it's a good idea to use it unless it shows signs of being back to normal sometime soon.

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 08:42 PM:

Posted by EvilTypeGuy on 04-26-2002 09:47 PM:

To DaveB:
The reason that I did not consider it clear enough is because it does not give explicit permission to distribute or modify it, or to distribute modified versions. That's the only problem...

To mysterial:

"warpcore.org seems in a bad state right now so I don't think it's a good idea to use it unless it shows signs of being back to normal sometime soon."

No, it's not in a bad state at all. We've hosted the invitational descent ladder and other things for years now. The only thing that's in not so great shape is the main site, and that is merely from lack of time to update it. Again, only the main site i.e. the front page is in a state of disarray...

Understand that warpcore.org has been around since 1995/96 or so. We're not going anywhere anytime soon We have our own servers, and a dedicated connection because our servers are co-located at Sprint HQ in Kansas City.

I knew that hosting it at sourceforge would most likely be an issue, as such I offer CVS and webhosting access to any source project that is looking to make Freespace 2 work under Linux...

I can easily setup a copy of bugzilla, and we already have CVS active for other projects.

Posted by EvilTypeGuy on 04-26-2002 09:47 PM:

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 09:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTypeGuy
To DaveB:

...Understand that warpcore.org has been around since 1995/96 or so. We're not going anywhere anytime soon We have our own servers, and a dedicated connection because our servers are co-located at Sprint HQ in Kansas City.

I knew that hosting it at sourceforge would most likely be an issue, as such I offer CVS and webhosting access to any source project that is looking to make Freespace 2 work under Linux...

My apologies, but from that main site, as you mentioned, it really does look a wreck. Since SourceForge isn't an option, looks like we might take up on your offer. Better ask Kazan and anyone else who's interested though, they might have different ideas.

Also please understand that even if it ends up on warpcore.org, while I, at least, will be intending to port it to OpenGL and finally to Linux, that is not the only goal and others may take precedence (such as the enlargement/removal of some of the current engine limits).

daveb:
EvilTypeGuy has a point. Although the notice tells us what we can't do, it doesn't give us explicit permission or otherwise tell us what we can do. I doubt the legal distinction is truly of any great importance, but it might make people feel better if it's all spelled out.

Posted by Mysterial on 04-26-2002 09:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTypeGuy
To DaveB:

...Understand that warpcore.org has been around since 1995/96 or so. We're not going anywhere anytime soon We have our own servers, and a dedicated connection because our servers are co-located at Sprint HQ in Kansas City.

I knew that hosting it at sourceforge would most likely be an issue, as such I offer CVS and webhosting access to any source project that is looking to make Freespace 2 work under Linux...

Posted by WMCoolmon on 04-26-2002 11:20 PM:

quote:
bug/feature tracker

If you mean just a plain ol' web page display I can whip something up with PHP to input the changes via forms

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