VWBB - Do you think the Lucifer's shields...

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- FreeSpace 1/2 Discussion (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=33)
-- Do you think the Lucifer's shields... (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=9993)

Posted by Tar-Palantir on 02-26-2003 05:11 PM:

quote:
"Spinning stations"?? Am I missing something??

If you don't have gravity technology, you can simulate the appearence of gravity by spinning a station around an axis. Depending on the speed of the spin and your distance to the axis determines the apparent strength of gravity felt. The space station at the start of '2001' and indeed Babylon 5 use this.

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Posted by ns33 on 02-26-2003 11:44 PM:

Right, centrefugal force... but I'm asking if there are SHIVAN spinning stations. I understand the need for Terrans and Vasudans, but as far as we know (or speculate), Shivans evolved in 0-G...

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Posted by Holywhippet on 02-26-2003 11:52 PM:

Those strange devices you had to destroy in the last special operations mission were spinning. They weren't big enough to be a space station though.

Posted by karajorma on 02-27-2003 12:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ns33
Right, centrefugal force... but I'm asking if there are SHIVAN spinning stations. I understand the need for Terrans and Vasudans, but as far as we know (or speculate), Shivans evolved in 0-G...

That was what the whole debate was about. The tech room says that the shivans may have evolved in zero-G but it's unlikely in my opinion.
The shivans obviously evolved (at least partly) in an enviroment where there was gravity. Their form is completely wrong for a zero-G lifeform.

quote:
Originally posted by Holywhippet
Those strange devices you had to destroy in the last special operations mission were spinning. They weren't big enough to be a space station though.

The devices were shivan comm nodes. What on Earth the shivans used them for is beyond me but we know their name from their table entry (or from looking at the mission in FRED)

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Posted by ns33 on 02-27-2003 01:21 AM:

quote:
The shivans obviously evolved (at least partly) in an enviroment where there was gravity. Their form is completely wrong for a zero-G lifeform.

You mean the quad-pod and single arm? I find that intresting too... the fact that there's a distinct orientation in the way they crawl/jump/walk on ship hulls is intresting. A true space-faring species would probably evolved in a more spherical-shape.

Posted by GalacticEmperor on 02-27-2003 01:29 AM:

True zero-G lifeforms would look like jellyfish, methinks...

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Posted by Bigbossman on 02-28-2003 02:03 AM:

Yeah, but if the shivans have been in space for millions of years, they would have evolved more( even though they are already an advanced society ) Just like humans are still evolving. So maybe
when they first entered space, they looked more normal, but as they were no longer dependent on a planet for thier survival they attained zero G characteristics. It did say we only know for sure that they did part of thier evolution in space right?

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Posted by Krytor on 02-28-2003 04:39 AM:

my take,

One, Shivans don't die of old age. This kind goes with the problem of why the tech hasn't changed... neither have they. Time is not a factor in terms of the shivans don't need to eat, sleep, immune to disease.... They might be capable of communication...

Someone mentioned earlier the thought of the shivans being sleepers... What if they just keep going arounfd killing anything that reaches a level of sophistication that is capable of eliminating them... if you have superior firepower and are always there before your prey can advance beyond you and you elimninate them first, you don't need to upgrade your tech... The shivans have not upgraded a single piece of technology since the war with the ancients... but how many more things were wiped out by the shivans before them...
Someone also pointed out the fact that shivans only attack when another species enters subspace... an indication of a a level of technology reached? If shivans live in subspace, why make the shielded Lucifer to be effective in normal space? The shivans seem to be content with being in normal space and not subspace... that we seen thus far(perhaps [V] had some intense subspace settings for battles).

Still the biggest thing that bugs me is the lack of advancement over 8000+ years... and only thing I can think of is shivans being immortal, or unaffected by aging. Who knows.

(Lucifer withstand Supernova.... I say maybe.... Might explain pratical purpose for the shield... Sathanas can cause a sun to super nova.... and the Lucifer is used in some purpose... were they trying to make a new lucifer, trying to call it back not knowing it was destroyed? Or were they merely doing a process that needs to be completed and that requires to stay behind to collect...data, music, food, bend/weavespace....etc)

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Posted by Krytor on 02-28-2003 04:41 AM:

and what if those aren't muscles...

Shivan kinda remind me of something being pulled inside out....
consiquentially, isn't that exposure to space could do to a life form(or it could just explode from the force of the pressure iniside the body, and the lack there of on the outside)

Posted by Jokoto on 02-28-2003 08:44 AM:

No.
A body does not burst in vacuum. (The pressure difference to normal is only 1 psi!) The blood does not boil, you don't instantly freeze, you don't instantly pass out - only after the oxygen supply in your blood is depleted. Dispel the myths, [url=http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html]do some reading[/url].

Posted by ns33 on 02-28-2003 01:25 PM:

Shivan anatomy is totally different than anything we've ever seen. The Vasudans were probably created by [V] to appear humanlike so the gamers would at least "think" of them as an "human-like ally" instead of some jelly-fish species which likes headz.

My guess would be that Shivan is a silicon based life-form. Tech specifies that a single Shivan arm can snap the strongest alloy, and can snap just about anything. I can't see anyway how muscules can do this. This probably ties in with genetics. Carbon-based life forms have genetic material in DNA. But as I see it, and of course much of so far is still speculation, there is no way for Shivans to reproduce by themselves. If this is true, then these Shivans (billions and maybe trillions of em) were "made" at one time. So this raises another question: Where did they come from.

Note how much this thread is digressing although Lucy shields have something to do with these strange... Shi-vans.

Posted by Jokoto on 02-28-2003 06:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ns33
Note how much this thread is digressing although Lucy shields have something to do with these strange... Shi-vans.

Yes, about that... Lucifer's shields could not withstand a supernova. It is more powerful than what anyone could imagine in our wildest dreams - if you think you have grasped the magnitude and power of a supernova, you've probably underestimated it a million-fold...

Posted by Bigbossman on 03-01-2003 01:05 AM:

Yeah i dont think theres any way it could have surived a close range supernova(or nova for that matter) I always assumed the

Satanas fleet used the star to jump to a different system(or galaxy, or if you're really wild universe)

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Posted by GalacticEmperor on 03-01-2003 01:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ns33
My guess would be that Shivan is a silicon based life-form.

I don't think so; silicon metabolizes veeerrrrryyyyy sloooowwwwlyyyyy. Ask any chemistry major. Silicon based lifeforms would look like concrete trees; no jumping up and down or running on walls.

Here's a thought: maybe the Shivans only use slightly higher technology on their enemies. So, we're afraid of the Lucifer because it has shielding and beams. Then, we get shielding and beams, build a juggernaut, and meet another juggernaut. Then we get a whole mess of juggernauts who blow up a star. If we learn how to blow up stars they're going to be one step ahead of us, and so on.

Posted by Zolee on 03-02-2003 03:26 PM:

I think (hope sometime ppl will notice previous replies ) the Shivans only harnessed Capella's power for creating a jump node out of nothing.
*Check the subspace thread if you want to read the rest
Anyway I think it's a matter of distance. We don't know the shielding mechanism, but what we do know is the aproximate power of the explosion.
That energy dissipates as radiation and a shockwave (much like a nuclear bomb, though there the most significant form of energy is heat, but in space heat can only be dissipated thogh radiation).
I think the initial posts in the Capella Supernova thread made the mistake that they didn't count the distance appropiatly.
Radiation lessens squarly as the distance increases. So from a couple of AUs it's already not as much of a punishment as near ground zero.
The shockwave even looses energy faster. Although the particles retain their velocity the actual mass lessens cubicly.
If the Lucifer had five fusion reactors - say the same that could propel an Orion - then we could calculate their output. About 80-60% of that could belong to creating the shield. I think the shockwaves energy should exeede the amount of energy the reactors create during the time of the impact to puch through the shield.

So in terms of references if Capella was a sun similar to Sol than, the Lucifer would be doubtlessly destroyed if the shockwave caught it within the radius of Venus' orbit even Earth - although shadowing a planet would afford some further protection.
In Martian orbit I think it may have survived the blast.
Beyond that the shockwave would have minimal effects.

Radiation on the other hand may still fry the whole ship - at least all the electronis devices.

Posted by Bigbossman on 03-02-2003 09:05 PM:

On that point i think that all of the inner planets (mercury, venus,mars,earth) Would be destroyed. We have to keep in mind

that capella went supernova, and not just nova. This means that all of the stars energy was sent out into space except for an ultra

dense nutron soup core. (to give an idea of the density, 5 cranes couldnt pick up a teaspoon of this stuff) So i think you're overestimating the strength of a planets surface.

Odds are that capellas core made a small black hole, and the change in solar wind which is associated with a black hole would have likely destroyes any nearby planet.

So to conclude, if the Satanas' had stayed in system, they would have been destroyed, but you'll notice on the cutsene that is seems as if the important ships jumped out.

As for the lucifer, i dont think i could have survived.
But, i could be wrong

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Posted by ns33 on 03-02-2003 11:56 PM:

That would be all true and could probably be proven if it were a natural death. It was a forced death by technology, and the results could be unpredictable.

Its simply not possible the Lucy could've survived the Capella nova. The energy we're talking about is HUGE, all matter would be obliterated by the fusion reaction. We're no longer talking about a release of iron and heavier metals, we're talking about helium and hydrogen still being produced. The energy needed to create the nova amounts to about how much the star spit out. I strongly think that nothing could survive that blast within 10 AUs (dont forget its a binary system).

Posted by Jokoto on 03-05-2003 06:16 PM:

Everyone's still underestimating the power of a supernova. One thing I thought about a little soon after completing FS2 for the first time, was the fate of Capella's neighbouring systems... How far were they again? They too are in line to take a beating from the radiation from Capella... At least Earth is far enough to just get the brilliant light show, after decades, and not the life-killing radiation fruit basket...

Some [url=http://www.earthsky.com/1999/es991224.html]link that I found[/url] while trying to find a research publication etc. about this; not much to go on, but it's something... (Check [url=http://www.earthsky.com/1999/es991225.html]the next one[/url] too.)

Posted by ns33 on 03-06-2003 11:41 PM:

I think light takes some 9 minutes to reach Earch from the sun. Just something relative......

<--- nice

Posted by Jokoto on 03-07-2003 05:54 AM:

The average distance of the Sun from the Earth (one AU, astronomical unit) is 8.3 lightminutes. Jupiter is 43 lightminutes away from Sun, and nearest star system, Alpha Centauri A and B, are 4 lightyears away...

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