VWBB - Volition's Todd is a SMARTEY

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VWBB (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/index.php)
- General Discussion (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=7)
-- Volition's Todd is a SMARTEY (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=8268)

Posted by ThresholdRPG on 02-18-2003 04:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hades
OT - Can an admin change the title of this thread, it's sort of bothering me...

Editing the title of a thread when the title does not violate any of the rules of the forum would "sort of bother" me quite a bit.

If you have a problem with ideas that differ from your own, you have bigger issues than just web forum titles you don't like.

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Posted by Slasher on 02-18-2003 08:02 AM:

I'm just a creeeep.......a weirdo.......what the...

Well, I hope the V guys are still willing to hang around here. WE'RE NOT INSENSITIVE DORKS HERE ON THE VWBB! Seriously, though, we aren't.

ThresholdRPG, while it's sad that Volition's employees can't hang around here as often as we'd like them to, many are still grateful they show up at all. Even if it's just for old times sake.

Posted by Todd on 02-18-2003 05:55 PM:

Bioware = PC developer.

Volition = console developer.

Huge difference in the way customer support is handled.

Posted by Stealth on 02-18-2003 06:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hades
OT - Can an admin change the title of this thread, it's sort of bothering me...

what would you have it changed to?
i like it the way it is

naaa, i wouldn't get a job at Volition even if one was offered me. (i live too far away from their headquarters)

Todd or daveb (or Xaneth (sp?!))... how much do they pay you guys? are you paid on a commission basis?

quote:
Originally posted by Knight Templar

oh no...

oh c'mon, you know you want me to

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Posted by Todd on 02-18-2003 07:58 PM:

We're salaried, with some common perks (i.e. stock options, royalties, etc)

Posted by aldo_14 on 02-18-2003 10:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
Like I have any influence on them, I haven't even gone in to work a single day yet.

You'd be better off soliciting something from Todd or daveb

and I suppose you're a little too late. They took down their advertisement for entry level programmers the day they hired me.

I don't know about you all but I'm stranded because of freezing sleet and rain. its about 2 inches thick and its like a semi solid block of ice. You can walk around without making dents in it, if you can manage to open the door...

See - if an entry level programmer needs 1 years (IIRC) experience, and their just entering the profession.....where do they get the experience from?

Sort of confuses me, that one. I'm hoping to work in the games industry when I graduate from Strath (Aug 2004, fingers crossed), and I looked at the jobs on the :V: site just to look at the sort of CV needed.

EDIT: AAAH! Evil post 666!

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Posted by Xanthen on 02-19-2003 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by aldo_14

See - if an entry level programmer needs 1 years (IIRC) experience, and their just entering the profession.....where do they get the experience from?

Sort of confuses me, that one. I'm hoping to work in the games industry when I graduate from Strath (Aug 2004, fingers crossed), and I looked at the jobs on the :V: site just to look at the sort of CV needed.

Well, the answer is, they don't specifically say only people with 1 year experience will be hired (some don't anyway), they say entry level programmers or people with 1 year experience. Which means your competing with people with 1 year experience, not to mention all the other entry people who want to get a job. So to be the one hired, you have to show them your better than nearly all the other applicants. The top few they will bring in for an interview and then they'll hire from that group.

Of course, you aren't competing fairly with the people with 1 year experience. They have the benefit of 1 year experience and so will initially appear better. However, they understand that, so you just need to show your potential is above theirs.

To be really straight forward, you have to make a really good programming demo. Mine took a year to complete.

Pacman, tetris, pong, 3d asteroids or some other similar clone isn't going to cut it. You have to go above and beyond that.

good luck. As far as salary goes, I'm quite pleased. I started out of college making average and I'm making considerably more now. Plus, its much cheaper to live in the midwest than california or texas. Shiny who I had a phone interview with, wasn't going to pay as much.

From what I understand game programming doesn't pay as well as other fields. A VB programmer could get paid 60k+ in the midwest fairly easily. I know a unix administrator, he's about 28 yo, is making 70k in nashville. These people didn't spend an enormous amount of spare time to make a demo either, they just drove down the street and competed with 5 other people for the posoition.

On another note though, you are generally capped in those industries. No matter how good you are, it still takes time to program even the simple things. So you will only get paid equal to how fast you can program interfaces and crap. There are a few people in games programming making 300k+ according to the gamasutra salary survey, and that would never happen in a normal business.

heres the link:[URL=http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010831/survey_01.htm]gamasutra salary survey[/URL]

I worked in that industry and while not boring, it wasn't fulfilling. Spend months automating a machine, when finished with it, it vanishes from your life. You can almost wonder if it was all your imagination.

Good luck.

Posted by Black Wolf on 02-19-2003 06:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd
[B]
Volition = console developer.

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Posted by ThresholdRPG on 02-19-2003 07:35 PM:

Re: I'm just a creeeep.......a weirdo.......what the...

quote:
Originally posted by Slasher

ThresholdRPG, while it's sad that Volition's employees can't hang around here as often as we'd like them to, many are still grateful they show up at all. Even if it's just for old times sake.

You are missing my point.

I am not criticising the employees of Volition (like Todd) who clearly come here and share information purely out of the goodness of their heart.

The problem is that "the suits" higher up do not value their customers enough to PAY to employee people to deal with customer relations and community building.

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Threshold RPG - Where Role playing isn't a feature, it's a requirement!

http://www.threshold-rpg.com

Posted by ThresholdRPG on 02-19-2003 07:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd
Bioware = PC developer.

Volition = console developer.

Huge difference in the way customer support is handled.

Todd, with all due respect, that is hardly a good excuse for crappy customer relations and an absolute LACK of community building.

Furthermore, Red Faction I & II, Summoner I, and Freespace I & II would seem to indicate that Volition is more than just a console developer.

Perhaps more importantly, they would be wise to acknowledge the PC fans they have for their games. Completely ignoring THE LARGEST INSTALLED BASE with the brush off statement "we are a console developer" is yet another poor business decision.

__________________
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Threshold RPG - Where Role playing isn't a feature, it's a requirement!

http://www.threshold-rpg.com

Posted by Todd on 02-19-2003 07:49 PM:

C'mon. You can't tell we're a console developer? Yeah, we were a PC developer, and we do have PC fans, buts its been a long while since we made an original PC title. We aren't even doing the PC port for RF2, Outrage is. And PC is certainly not our largest installed base. RF PS2 outsold RF PC. Summoner PS2 outsold Summoner PC. RF2 PS2 will more than likely outsell RF2 PC.

Comparing us to Bioware is unfair. Bioware is the exception. Not many companies to that level of customer relations. Find an EA company that does that level (EA is basically the top video game publisher right now) of customer relations. You probably can't.

We do customer support for Summoner2. If someone emails the webmaster, I respond if at all possible, or I redirect them to someone who can respond. There's probably 15 message boards floating around for our games, how can I be expected to visit those and keep up with them on a regular basis, AND get all my work done? Expecting us to offer some kind overwhelming support, on a 3rd party message board, is just asking for way too much. People who don't read this board have no problem emailing the webmaster, but you seem to have that problem... I can't help you.

Posted by Remora on 02-19-2003 10:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
Well, the answer is, they don't specifically say only people with 1 year experience will be hired (some don't anyway), they say entry level programmers or people with 1 year experience. Which means your competing with people with 1 year experience, not to mention all the other entry people who want to get a job. So to be the one hired, you have to show them your better than nearly all the other applicants. The top few they will bring in for an interview and then they'll hire from that group.

That's the same for any field. Credentials will get your foot in the door ... but aptitude will get you the job.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
From what I understand game programming doesn't pay as well as other fields.

This may be true ... but there are perks you wouldn't get at a big corporation. For example: stock options, royalties, and programming GAMES.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
These people didn't spend an enormous amount of spare time to make a demo either, they just drove down the street and competed with 5 other people for the posoition.

You probably didn't mean that in such a condescending tone ... but I sorta take offense to that. I competed for the job I have with 2300+ applicants ... straight out of college. Out of those, they flew like 30 or so here, and picked two. I would say that's quite the compliment.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
On another note though, you are generally capped in those industries. No matter how good you are, it still takes time to program even the simple things. So you will only get paid equal to how fast you can program interfaces and crap. There are a few people in games programming making 300k+ according to the gamasutra salary survey, and that would never happen in a normal business.

I know of several programmers that make that much in "normal business" ... and it doesn't always depend on how good you are, sometimes it's how much ass you kiss hahaha. But seriously, that logic is flawed ... of course there are a small amount of people making that in the gaming industry, just like there may be a couple making over a million. For every one of those "special" people, there's probably 100 or 1000 others making 50-100k. That happens everywhere.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
I worked in that industry and while not boring, it wasn't fulfilling. Spend months automating a machine, when finished with it, it vanishes from your life. You can almost wonder if it was all your imagination.

Haha ... this is true, but again depends on experience. I just got done with a project that, at the start, daily books a few million dollars worth of cargo around the world on three major airlines. I sorta find that fulfilling, when I consider how many lives that affects.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against you or the gaming industry ... in fact, I'm insanely jealous that you're going to program games for a living! My point in all this is that, when you boil it down to making a living, things are quite the same ... I always believed that if you love doing your job, you never work a day in your life. I think the difference between the gaming industry and other industries is the difference in how many people love their job

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Posted by Todd on 02-19-2003 11:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Remora

You probably didn't mean that in such a condescending tone ... but I sorta take offense to that. I competed for the job I have with 2300+ applicants ... straight out of college. Out of those, they flew like 30 or so here, and picked two. I would say that's quite the compliment.

I told you that killing spree would pay off.

HA HA SEE I IMPLY THAT REMORA SUX ASND HE CAN ONLY GET HIRED IF HE KILLED ALL THE OTHAR APPLIKANTS!!!

Posted by Remora on 02-19-2003 11:15 PM:

Once again, you'll be the death of me T0rdz. Besides, if I killed 2300 people, don't you think I would have gotten a spot on CNN? I mean, that dood that sniped 10 people got nation-wide coverage for a week ...

Posted by Xanthen on 02-19-2003 11:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Remora
You probably didn't mean that in such a condescending tone ... but I sorta take offense to that. I competed for the job I have with 2300+ applicants ... straight out of college. Out of those, they flew like 30 or so here, and picked two. I would say that's quite the compliment.

Your right I didn't. I was talking about those two people I knew. There are not a lot of skilled professionals where I'm from and so those jobs don't get many applicants. Never the less, I believe you will find getting in the game industry more difficult.

(edit) I also am curious about the difficulties in widdiling out the top 30 resumes from 2300+ applications.

And on another note, I figure Volition spent $1000+ on interviewing me. Just something I was surprised at when I tallyed up all the costs.

quote:
I know of several programmers that make that much in "normal business" ... and it doesn't always depend on how good you are, sometimes it's how much ass you kiss hahaha. But seriously, that logic is flawed ... of course there are a small amount of people making that in the gaming industry, just like there may be a couple making over a million. For every one of those "special" people, there's probably 100 or 1000 others making 50-100k. That happens everywhere.

I suppose... I dunno, we live in two different worlds. Only way I know of to make that much is to be in upper management or own your own business. Neither of which involves programming.

Posted by Remora on 02-19-2003 11:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
Never the less, I believe you will find getting in the game industry more difficult.

I agree with you there ... game programming is pretty specialized and very competitive.

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
I suppose... I dunno, we live in two different worlds. Only way I know of to make that much is to be in upper management or own your own business. Neither of which involves programming.

I agree with this also ... but how many game programmers that make 300k/year do programming full time? I would be willing to bet they spend a lot more time doing high-level stuff than just programming.

Posted by Todd on 02-19-2003 11:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Remora
I agree with this also ... but how many game programmers that make 300k/year do programming full time? I would be willing to bet they spend a lot more time doing high-level stuff than just programming.

That's probably true. No entry-level programmer makes that much. _Maybe_ a senior level programmer. A lead programmer might make that much, but lead programmer's typically do less programming than an entry level. A tech director can probably make that much, but they do even less programming than a lead

Posted by Remora on 02-19-2003 11:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
(edit) I also am curious about the difficulties in widdiling out the top 30 resumes from 2300+ applications.

skill sets and experience, probably ... you went to college, how many resumes did you give out? not to mention the software engineer market was pretty tight at the beginning of 2002 (the whole economy/terrorist thing)

quote:
Originally posted by Xanthen
And on another note, I figure Volition spent $1000+ on interviewing me. Just something I was surprised at when I tallyed up all the costs.

which is why getting hired should be taken as a great compliment ... not only did you beat out many other people, but the company invested money in you before you even started producing for them.

Posted by Remora on 02-19-2003 11:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd
That's probably true. No entry-level programmer makes that much. _Maybe_ a senior level programmer. A lead programmer might make that much, but lead programmer's typically do less programming than an entry level. A tech director can probably make that much, but they do even less programming than a lead

wonder if your salary could be based on how much _actual_ work you do? just look at your boss. hahaha

Posted by Xanthen on 02-19-2003 11:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Remora

wonder if your salary could be based on how much _actual_ work you do? just look at your boss. hahaha

again a different world. Of the managers I know that don't own the company, they are all very hard working people, much more than Dilbert would seem to indicate. I hold a lot more respect for them now. I guess it gets bad in big corporate institutions where length of time is more important than the quality of the people working.

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