VWBB (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/index.php)
- Blackwater Ops (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8)
-- Ships from original Fs2... (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=6473)
Posted by Akimoto on 06-17-2002 05:21 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Alikchi
Wasn't XWA supposed to be able to handle a lot of ships on screen?
Of course, it managed this by not using the full potential of the engine. Otherwise we wouldn't need XWAUP.
It's a fundmental differnece in file structures.
XWA's missions which are in a binary format called .tie which is heavily structured and is part of the built in limit to 96 craft/region.
FS2's mission format as far as I can tell are all scripts generated through FRED's interface, and generally are simply limited to the amount of data that the engine is able to process from said scripts. I think that FS2's ability to run said scripts isn't as fast as it could be if done now(probably due to minimum system specs, but also probably due to keeping netcode in a reasonable figure.)
So while yes, FS2's ship limitation is more of an engine/system based one, XWA's was hard coded to begin with, and it really has nothing to do with using the full potential of the engine.(Said engine is about 7 years old, and had been used since the SWoTL days with quite a few changes. It's about as spaghetti'd as Windows. Maybe worse.)
Posted by Akimoto on 06-17-2002 05:21 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Alikchi
Wasn't XWA supposed to be able to handle a lot of ships on screen?
Of course, it managed this by not using the full potential of the engine. Otherwise we wouldn't need XWAUP.
It's a fundmental differnece in file structures.
XWA's missions which are in a binary format called .tie which is heavily structured and is part of the built in limit to 96 craft/region.
FS2's mission format as far as I can tell are all scripts generated through FRED's interface, and generally are simply limited to the amount of data that the engine is able to process from said scripts. I think that FS2's ability to run said scripts isn't as fast as it could be if done now(probably due to minimum system specs, but also probably due to keeping netcode in a reasonable figure.)
So while yes, FS2's ship limitation is more of an engine/system based one, XWA's was hard coded to begin with, and it really has nothing to do with using the full potential of the engine.(Said engine is about 7 years old, and had been used since the SWoTL days with quite a few changes. It's about as spaghetti'd as Windows. Maybe worse.)
Posted by Slasher on 06-17-2002 10:50 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Sheep 2000
...oh well...the "#" rulez 
Indeed. 
Posted by Slasher on 06-17-2002 10:50 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Sheep 2000
...oh well...the "#" rulez
Indeed.
Posted by chromatix on 06-20-2002 12:46 AM:
On the subject of turrets...
...I agree that the current capship lasers suck terribly. They're just not a threat unless you pump up the difficulty level a lot, especially compared to flak cannons. They fire so infrequently that they're easy to dodge, and that also means they can't handle more than one target (that they *can* hit, like bombs) at once.
I reckon replacing the traditional lasers with Prometheus or something would have a much better effect on incoming hostiles. After all, the Prometheus is designed for taking out fighters and bombers, with a relatively high rate of fire (for a capship turret) and damage-per-minute rate.
If you want anti-capship turrets that aren't beams, stick a few Maxim turrets in. Nice long range and good hull damage, and a capship should have no trouble powering and steadying them, unlike fighters and bombers.
Come to that, a Maxim would also be reasonably effective against bombers despite the poor anti-shield characteristics, because the range is long enough that the shield can be worn down gradually.
Sentry guns equipped with Kaysers might not be a bad idea either. At the moment, sentries simply can't defend themselves adequately, let alone anything they're supposed to protect.
Posted by chromatix on 06-20-2002 12:46 AM:
On the subject of turrets...
...I agree that the current capship lasers suck terribly. They're just not a threat unless you pump up the difficulty level a lot, especially compared to flak cannons. They fire so infrequently that they're easy to dodge, and that also means they can't handle more than one target (that they *can* hit, like bombs) at once.
I reckon replacing the traditional lasers with Prometheus or something would have a much better effect on incoming hostiles. After all, the Prometheus is designed for taking out fighters and bombers, with a relatively high rate of fire (for a capship turret) and damage-per-minute rate.
If you want anti-capship turrets that aren't beams, stick a few Maxim turrets in. Nice long range and good hull damage, and a capship should have no trouble powering and steadying them, unlike fighters and bombers.
Come to that, a Maxim would also be reasonably effective against bombers despite the poor anti-shield characteristics, because the range is long enough that the shield can be worn down gradually.
Sentry guns equipped with Kaysers might not be a bad idea either. At the moment, sentries simply can't defend themselves adequately, let alone anything they're supposed to protect.
Posted by chromatix on 06-20-2002 12:53 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Bobboau
are you a smarty programer person? 
I am! But unfortunately I'm, er, a touch busy. A Ph.D looms, and my skills are also in (paid and unpaid) demand elsewhere...
That's not to say I'm uninterested in doing FS2 mods - it's just that I don't have that kind of time lying around. A pity...
Posted by chromatix on 06-20-2002 12:53 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Bobboau
are you a smarty programer person?
I am! But unfortunately I'm, er, a touch busy. A Ph.D looms, and my skills are also in (paid and unpaid) demand elsewhere...
That's not to say I'm uninterested in doing FS2 mods - it's just that I don't have that kind of time lying around. A pity...
Posted by Pr011 on 06-20-2002 05:22 PM:
quote:
...I agree that the current capship lasers suck terribly
You forget that the point to some of the weapons is not to destroy, but to just look pretty. Look at the terSlash and fusion mortars, they look very cool but don't do a lot of damage... same with the GTVA lasers. Large turrets firing small green blobs... it just looks nice.
In theory, anyway!__________________
What can I say? Life is fun.
Posted by Pr011 on 06-20-2002 05:22 PM:
quote:
...I agree that the current capship lasers suck terribly
You forget that the point to some of the weapons is not to destroy, but to just look pretty. Look at the terSlash and fusion mortars, they look very cool but don't do a lot of damage... same with the GTVA lasers. Large turrets firing small green blobs... it just looks nice.
In theory, anyway!__________________
What can I say? Life is fun.
Posted by IceFire on 06-20-2002 06:22 PM:
You guys don't know how dangerous a capital ship becomes once you make the laser turrets even just a bit more effective. Give a Deimos all Prometheus S and see what happens. You probably won't like trying to fly against one. Thats for sure.
__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]
Posted by BabProj Team on 06-20-2002 06:22 PM:
You guys don't know how dangerous a capital ship becomes once you make the laser turrets even just a bit more effective. Give a Deimos all Prometheus S and see what happens. You probably won't like trying to fly against one. Thats for sure.
__________________
- The Babylon Project Team
Posted by Black Sheep 2000 on 06-20-2002 06:59 PM:
Hehe...or let's try with the nice T-Bolt 45mm ...a bit off-topic...but still....eheheheheehe....
...btw...when will I get the voice scripts?
__________________
"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark..."
HAMLET RULEZ!!
Posted by Black Sheep 2000 on 06-20-2002 06:59 PM:
Hehe...or let's try with the nice T-Bolt 45mm ...a bit off-topic...but still....eheheheheehe....
...btw...when will I get the voice scripts?
__________________
"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark..."
HAMLET RULEZ!!
Posted by chromatix on 06-22-2002 02:47 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by IceFire
You guys don't know how dangerous a capital ship becomes once you make the laser turrets even just a bit more effective. Give a Deimos all Prometheus S and see what happens. You probably won't like trying to fly against one. Thats for sure.
Let's see. I gave an Aeolus a refit with a pair of SVas, a pair of Maxim, a pair of long-range flak, and the rest Kaysers. It successfully took out 5 waves of Nephilim on it's own, which is good going for a cruiser. 
To make things a bit fairer, I made it have an encounter with a Rakshasa first. The SRed beams are damned effective... which means the Aeolus starts repelling bombers with rather less turrets to bring to bear, and some of them are damaged giving less accuracy. It can still hold it's own against a few waves, but it starts needing a wing of fighters to hold them off at this point.
Looks like Maxim are actually pretty useless against bombers on their own, but they're still great against the bombs themselves. With half a dozen Kaysers converging on hostiles, they don't last long... once they get in range, that is.
As for effective lasers making it hard to attack capships, I think that's how it should be! I really believe it should take a major taskforce to remove any kind of destroyer from circulation, and a pretty decent array to handle a corvette.
I'm in favour of smarter capship AI for much the same reasons - there's nothing more frustrating than watching a ship pelting away with lasers, when there's a set of perfectly good heavy beams available if it simply rolled over a bit. By the same token, it'd be kinda handy if ships (small as well as big) made at least some effort to stay away from the highest concentrations of weapons on their enemy... 
Posted by chromatix on 06-22-2002 02:47 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by IceFire
You guys don't know how dangerous a capital ship becomes once you make the laser turrets even just a bit more effective. Give a Deimos all Prometheus S and see what happens. You probably won't like trying to fly against one. Thats for sure.
Let's see. I gave an Aeolus a refit with a pair of SVas, a pair of Maxim, a pair of long-range flak, and the rest Kaysers. It successfully took out 5 waves of Nephilim on it's own, which is good going for a cruiser.
To make things a bit fairer, I made it have an encounter with a Rakshasa first. The SRed beams are damned effective... which means the Aeolus starts repelling bombers with rather less turrets to bring to bear, and some of them are damaged giving less accuracy. It can still hold it's own against a few waves, but it starts needing a wing of fighters to hold them off at this point.
Looks like Maxim are actually pretty useless against bombers on their own, but they're still great against the bombs themselves. With half a dozen Kaysers converging on hostiles, they don't last long... once they get in range, that is.
As for effective lasers making it hard to attack capships, I think that's how it should be! I really believe it should take a major taskforce to remove any kind of destroyer from circulation, and a pretty decent array to handle a corvette.
I'm in favour of smarter capship AI for much the same reasons - there's nothing more frustrating than watching a ship pelting away with lasers, when there's a set of perfectly good heavy beams available if it simply rolled over a bit. By the same token, it'd be kinda handy if ships (small as well as big) made at least some effort to stay away from the highest concentrations of weapons on their enemy...
Posted by Pr011 on 06-22-2002 05:15 PM:
quote:
Let's see. I gave an Aeolus a refit with a pair of SVas, a pair of Maxim, a pair of long-range flak, and the rest Kaysers. It successfully took out 5 waves of Nephilim on it's own, which is good going for a cruiser.
Personally, I don't like the idea of sticking Shivan or fighter weapons onto cap-ships. Just for the sake of being realistic. Plus, a normal GTVA corvette would struggle at best to knock out that many bombers... beware making cap-ships too powerful!
Also, the cruisers secondary function - supporting major capital warships in a fleet engagement agasint other cap-ships would be diminished.
(Although that is also a job for corvettes)__________________
What can I say? Life is fun.
Posted by Pr011 on 06-22-2002 05:15 PM:
quote:
Let's see. I gave an Aeolus a refit with a pair of SVas, a pair of Maxim, a pair of long-range flak, and the rest Kaysers. It successfully took out 5 waves of Nephilim on it's own, which is good going for a cruiser.
Personally, I don't like the idea of sticking Shivan or fighter weapons onto cap-ships. Just for the sake of being realistic. Plus, a normal GTVA corvette would struggle at best to knock out that many bombers... beware making cap-ships too powerful!
Also, the cruisers secondary function - supporting major capital warships in a fleet engagement agasint other cap-ships would be diminished.
(Although that is also a job for corvettes)__________________
What can I say? Life is fun.
Posted by chromatix on 06-23-2002 03:54 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Pr011
Personally, I don't like the idea of sticking Shivan or fighter weapons onto cap-ships. Just for the sake of being realistic. Plus, a normal GTVA corvette would struggle at best to knock out that many bombers... beware making cap-ships too powerful!
Also, the cruisers secondary function - supporting major capital warships in a fleet engagement agasint other cap-ships would be diminished.
(Although that is also a job for corvettes)
Well, let's see. I didn't stick any Shivan weapons on it, that would indeed be silly. But come on, putting a new reactor and a pair of relatively small Vasudan beams on a 35-year-old cruiser can't be that far-fetched. I hardly think that a real military division would say no to better defensive lasers, either. Might be an idea to replace the Kaysers with the more common Prometheus and leave a couple of anti-fighter beams in there...
The Aeolus was always a dangerous ship to attack without some kind of heavy hardware, now it's just carrying on the tradition!
However, I'm also aware of the "frustration factor" which shows up when a mission gets too hard to complete, and a refitted cruiser would form part of new missions rather than affecting existing ones. I think it's something for mission designers to keep in mind, rather than anything else. I don't hear too many complaints that FS1 was too hard, although accounts suggest it was balanced considerably further against the player than FS2.
Maybe the question needs to be restated in different terms. Would you rather have a simulation of what real space combat would be like (ie. powerful capships and ****loads of fighters), or a game that's easy to play? For a mass-market game that needs to sell, the latter works, as FS2 was. For an enthusiast-driven extension to a game that is no longer on the market, maybe the former needs a look....__________________
The key to knowledge is not to rely on people to teach you it.
Posted by chromatix on 06-23-2002 03:54 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Pr011
Personally, I don't like the idea of sticking Shivan or fighter weapons onto cap-ships. Just for the sake of being realistic. Plus, a normal GTVA corvette would struggle at best to knock out that many bombers... beware making cap-ships too powerful!
Also, the cruisers secondary function - supporting major capital warships in a fleet engagement agasint other cap-ships would be diminished.
(Although that is also a job for corvettes)
Well, let's see. I didn't stick any Shivan weapons on it, that would indeed be silly. But come on, putting a new reactor and a pair of relatively small Vasudan beams on a 35-year-old cruiser can't be that far-fetched. I hardly think that a real military division would say no to better defensive lasers, either. Might be an idea to replace the Kaysers with the more common Prometheus and leave a couple of anti-fighter beams in there...
The Aeolus was always a dangerous ship to attack without some kind of heavy hardware, now it's just carrying on the tradition!
However, I'm also aware of the "frustration factor" which shows up when a mission gets too hard to complete, and a refitted cruiser would form part of new missions rather than affecting existing ones. I think it's something for mission designers to keep in mind, rather than anything else. I don't hear too many complaints that FS1 was too hard, although accounts suggest it was balanced considerably further against the player than FS2.
Maybe the question needs to be restated in different terms. Would you rather have a simulation of what real space combat would be like (ie. powerful capships and ****loads of fighters), or a game that's easy to play? For a mass-market game that needs to sell, the latter works, as FS2 was. For an enthusiast-driven extension to a game that is no longer on the market, maybe the former needs a look....__________________
The key to knowledge is not to rely on people to teach you it.
