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Posted by IceFire on 03-30-2003 04:52 AM:

Probably after we get the primary ships of the series done and whatnot, we can hit areas of interest.

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Posted by BabProj Team on 03-30-2003 04:52 AM:

Probably after we get the primary ships of the series done and whatnot, we can hit areas of interest.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Posted by redmenace7 on 03-30-2003 08:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xaphod_x

Among human leaders there are Pinochet, Hitler, George W Bush, Lenin and Margaret Thatcher - quite a diverse group, and that's a small crosssection to say the least.

Truly their has been some really awefull people in history: Gengis kahn, Rasputen, Stalin, bill clinton, Ehud Barak, Nelville Chamberlin, Jimmy Carter, Arafat, Mussolini, Saddam, and The British Pop band Oasis and so on. but these people are also appointed or supported by people. And in that they are responcible for the actions of their leaders.

Posted by redmenace7 on 03-30-2003 08:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xaphod_x

Among human leaders there are Pinochet, Hitler, George W Bush, Lenin and Margaret Thatcher - quite a diverse group, and that's a small crosssection to say the least.

Truly their has been some really awefull people in history: Gengis kahn, Rasputen, Stalin, bill clinton, Ehud Barak, Nelville Chamberlin, Jimmy Carter, Arafat, Mussolini, Saddam, and The British Pop band Oasis and so on. but these people are also appointed or supported by people. And in that they are responcible for the actions of their leaders.

Posted by karajorma on 03-30-2003 01:47 PM:

I`m sorry but the Dilgar were evil. If they had only attacked on world I might have understood the point but they pretty much took on every world in the LoNAW. Where was the need for that? Remember that back then the League probably wouldn`t have cared too much if one of the other species got wiped out so I doubt they got into the war because they were defending their neighbours. They got into the war because the Dilgar had attacked them too.

The Dilgar weren`t fighting a war just to get a new homeworld. They were fighting a war of conquest and they probably wouldn`t have stopped until they had gained all of the LoNAW's space (as well as the Narn's worlds probably)

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Posted by karajorma on 03-30-2003 01:47 PM:

I`m sorry but the Dilgar were evil. If they had only attacked on world I might have understood the point but they pretty much took on every world in the LoNAW. Where was the need for that? Remember that back then the League probably wouldn`t have cared too much if one of the other species got wiped out so I doubt they got into the war because they were defending their neighbours. They got into the war because the Dilgar had attacked them too.

The Dilgar weren`t fighting a war just to get a new homeworld. They were fighting a war of conquest and they probably wouldn`t have stopped until they had gained all of the LoNAW's space (as well as the Narn's worlds probably)

__________________
Questions about FS3? Questions about Fred? Questions about missions? Questions about adding new ships to your games?

[URL=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/intro.html]Karajorma's Freespace FAQ [/URL] (now with added GE goodness)

Supreme Overlord of The Mercury Affair Campaign.

FREDder, Modder, Story design and general busybody for [URL=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Background.html] Mind Games[/URL]

Posted by Edwin on 03-30-2003 03:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ace
Overall I don't think the Dilgar were evil...



*cough* *cough* death *cough* walker *cough*

__________________
"If you go to Z'ha'dum you will die"
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(natives of Z'ha'dum may ignore this)

For all the rest of you.... don't come here.

Posted by Edwin on 03-30-2003 03:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ace
Overall I don't think the Dilgar were evil...



*cough* *cough* death *cough* walker *cough*

__________________
"If you go to Z'ha'dum you will die"
-Kosh
(natives of Z'ha'dum may ignore this)

For all the rest of you.... don't come here.

Posted by BabProj Team on 03-30-2003 04:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Edwin



*cough* *cough* death *cough* walker *cough*

In his argument he already stated that he was talking not about Death Walker about about the people at large. Shades of grey...not light and dark.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Posted by IceFire on 03-30-2003 04:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Edwin



*cough* *cough* death *cough* walker *cough*

In his argument he already stated that he was talking not about Death Walker about about the people at large. Shades of grey...not light and dark.

__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
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Posted by -Norbert- on 03-30-2003 04:26 PM:

There was the question how EA and Leage could defeat the Dilgar.
Maybe EA hasn't got good technology, but definately good design.
From the technical point of view an Omega of B5 itself wouldn't stand a chance against a Primus or a Drakh cruiser. But in the show EA could beat the Drakh easily (if there just wouldn't have been the Deathcloud and virus). And B5 defeated the Primus quite easily too.

Any maybe EA had superior tacticians to the Dilgar and could beat them that way.

I would be interested if there is anything from JMS about the Dilgar war? Or in one of the books?

Posted by -Norbert- on 03-30-2003 04:26 PM:

There was the question how EA and Leage could defeat the Dilgar.
Maybe EA hasn't got good technology, but definately good design.
From the technical point of view an Omega of B5 itself wouldn't stand a chance against a Primus or a Drakh cruiser. But in the show EA could beat the Drakh easily (if there just wouldn't have been the Deathcloud and virus). And B5 defeated the Primus quite easily too.

Any maybe EA had superior tacticians to the Dilgar and could beat them that way.

I would be interested if there is anything from JMS about the Dilgar war? Or in one of the books?

Posted by karajorma on 03-30-2003 05:49 PM:

I got the feeling that the EA knew that they could take on the Dilgar and win. That they were superior to them in both numbers and power.
It's stated in the show that the EA got into the Dilgar War mearly to establish themselves as a superpower. You don`t get into a war like that if your ships are inferior cause that's just asking for a smackdown on your homeworld.
The way I see it is that the Dilgar were more powerful than the League but still much less powerful than the EA.
Something like the Drazi were getting close to by the end of series 5.

__________________
Questions about FS3? Questions about Fred? Questions about missions? Questions about adding new ships to your games?

[URL=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/intro.html]Karajorma's Freespace FAQ [/URL] (now with added GE goodness)

Supreme Overlord of The Mercury Affair Campaign.

FREDder, Modder, Story design and general busybody for [URL=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Background.html] Mind Games[/URL]

Posted by karajorma on 03-30-2003 05:49 PM:

I got the feeling that the EA knew that they could take on the Dilgar and win. That they were superior to them in both numbers and power.
It's stated in the show that the EA got into the Dilgar War mearly to establish themselves as a superpower. You don`t get into a war like that if your ships are inferior cause that's just asking for a smackdown on your homeworld.
The way I see it is that the Dilgar were more powerful than the League but still much less powerful than the EA.
Something like the Drazi were getting close to by the end of series 5.

__________________
Questions about FS3? Questions about Fred? Questions about missions? Questions about adding new ships to your games?

[URL=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/intro.html]Karajorma's Freespace FAQ [/URL] (now with added GE goodness)

Supreme Overlord of The Mercury Affair Campaign.

FREDder, Modder, Story design and general busybody for [URL=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Background.html] Mind Games[/URL]

Posted by Ghost Rider on 03-31-2003 06:47 AM:

After reading the continuing posts on the storyline and other issues maybe I can help clarify some of the background story of the war as accounted by B5 Wars' Dilgar Invasion supplement. I apologize for the length.

The opening of the 2200s is described as a turbulent time for the galaxy. The Centauri are in decline, the Narn are seizing worlds and adding them to their Regime and the League exists mostly symbolic as most races keep to themselves, except a few like the Vree which promoted trade. The Dilgar at this point are a minor race. Their scientists had recently discovered that the sun at their home system of Omelos would soon go nova. The Dilgar being very aggresive and suspiscious of their neighbors decide that instead of making their situation public knowledge and ask for help, that such actions would be considered a weakness to be exploited by potential enemies and the only solution was to take what they needed.

The invasion began with the assault of a minor non-League race called Alacans. The invasion force was very small as the Dilgar didn't have a big fleet at this point, most being used to cover the borders of Drazi space. The Dilgar used brilliant tactics and careful planning to ambush 2 key targets in the Alacan system. I won't go into much details as to this and other events because it is extremely long to go over but if a campaign was ever to be drafted I can provide exactly what happened here and the rest of the locations throughout the war. After all resistance was eliminated the Dilgar proceeded with what would later be a standard procedure of their conquests, bombardment from orbit with Mass Drivers for weeks. Then they commited landing troops for occupation. Survivors were enslaved if healthy or executed if ill or injured, some were selected to go to Dilgar "Medical" ships where they were experimented upon for research into biological and chemical weapons. Only 1 starship, the Pyrotinia, escaped the invasion and attempted to secure assistance from nearby races (this ship would continue to seek help from one race to next for the following 4 years until reaching Earth).

The system of Tirrith was used by multiple League worlds for trade and very light diplomacy and when the Alacan ship arrived screaming invasion it was met with doubt and disbelief, only the Vree were curious enough to send a small fleet to confirm this, they were intercepted by the Dilgar and explained that the Alacans had been raiding the Dilgar territories and that was the cause for military action. The Vree accepted this and left, the Alacan crew moved on to the Abbai. They listened to they story and mobilized their forces but only defensively. The crew continued to the Drazi who did listen and by 2229 the Drazi and Dilgar had an undeclared war, mostly at a stalemate. By 2230 massive shipyards built in Alacan space were pouring out large armadas, the next target was another weak race which had only their home system as territory, Balos (Balos was selected as the future substitue homeworld of the Dilgar). At this, the Abbai knew they were next and conveyed a League meeting seeking support, except the Drazi resistance and economic sanctions from the Vree, other League worlds were too far away to be concerned and remained skeptical. The Drazi and Abbai secretly made a pact to help each other and this led to the Drazi and Abbai campaigns, the Dilgar fought on both fronts simultaneously, while the Drazi held on, the Abbai were imprisoned in their own homeworld after the use of biological weapons by the Dilgar. Next came the periods of the Blietzkrieg, Drazi counteroffensive, 2nd Drazi campaign, and blietzkrieg renewed.

In 2231 the Alacan crew reached Earth. By this time almost all League worlds had fallen to the Dilgar, except the Drazi and Abbai still imprisoned below the surface of their blockaded world. Earth heard the pleas of the crew and sympathized yet the Senate was going to remain uninvolved until the night prior to the vote the Dilgar invade the Markab, which was one jump away from EA space and happened to be on quite friendly terms with Earth. The outrage over this invasion of their allies and the war crimes by the Dilgar pushed the EA into war. Over the next year the EA liberated one race at a time, and then incorporated what little these could provide in terms of fleets and warriors until pushing the Dilgar back after a very long year of war in 2232.

The Dilgar were forced into seclusion in their own home system, which they never revealed was going to go nova. The guarding peacekeeping forces had but minutes to escape the system before it was destroyed a few years after the war ended. The Centauri remained uninvolved in the war and the Narns had made a pact of neutrality with the Dilgar and remained actively uninvolved in the war save for some war materials they sold to the Dilgar during the blietzkrieg period. As to weapons, the Dilgar were the first to develop particle weapons, while the League and Earth used less powerful plasma weaponry. During the war, Earth and the League managed to reverse engineer this tech and adapt it for themselves, replacing plasma weapons for particle. That's as brief as I can explain it.

To the team, again I apologize for such a long post.

__________________
One last stand to hold the line against the night...EA President

Posted by Ghost Rider on 03-31-2003 06:47 AM:

After reading the continuing posts on the storyline and other issues maybe I can help clarify some of the background story of the war as accounted by B5 Wars' Dilgar Invasion supplement. I apologize for the length.

The opening of the 2200s is described as a turbulent time for the galaxy. The Centauri are in decline, the Narn are seizing worlds and adding them to their Regime and the League exists mostly symbolic as most races keep to themselves, except a few like the Vree which promoted trade. The Dilgar at this point are a minor race. Their scientists had recently discovered that the sun at their home system of Omelos would soon go nova. The Dilgar being very aggresive and suspiscious of their neighbors decide that instead of making their situation public knowledge and ask for help, that such actions would be considered a weakness to be exploited by potential enemies and the only solution was to take what they needed.

The invasion began with the assault of a minor non-League race called Alacans. The invasion force was very small as the Dilgar didn't have a big fleet at this point, most being used to cover the borders of Drazi space. The Dilgar used brilliant tactics and careful planning to ambush 2 key targets in the Alacan system. I won't go into much details as to this and other events because it is extremely long to go over but if a campaign was ever to be drafted I can provide exactly what happened here and the rest of the locations throughout the war. After all resistance was eliminated the Dilgar proceeded with what would later be a standard procedure of their conquests, bombardment from orbit with Mass Drivers for weeks. Then they commited landing troops for occupation. Survivors were enslaved if healthy or executed if ill or injured, some were selected to go to Dilgar "Medical" ships where they were experimented upon for research into biological and chemical weapons. Only 1 starship, the Pyrotinia, escaped the invasion and attempted to secure assistance from nearby races (this ship would continue to seek help from one race to next for the following 4 years until reaching Earth).

The system of Tirrith was used by multiple League worlds for trade and very light diplomacy and when the Alacan ship arrived screaming invasion it was met with doubt and disbelief, only the Vree were curious enough to send a small fleet to confirm this, they were intercepted by the Dilgar and explained that the Alacans had been raiding the Dilgar territories and that was the cause for military action. The Vree accepted this and left, the Alacan crew moved on to the Abbai. They listened to they story and mobilized their forces but only defensively. The crew continued to the Drazi who did listen and by 2229 the Drazi and Dilgar had an undeclared war, mostly at a stalemate. By 2230 massive shipyards built in Alacan space were pouring out large armadas, the next target was another weak race which had only their home system as territory, Balos (Balos was selected as the future substitue homeworld of the Dilgar). At this, the Abbai knew they were next and conveyed a League meeting seeking support, except the Drazi resistance and economic sanctions from the Vree, other League worlds were too far away to be concerned and remained skeptical. The Drazi and Abbai secretly made a pact to help each other and this led to the Drazi and Abbai campaigns, the Dilgar fought on both fronts simultaneously, while the Drazi held on, the Abbai were imprisoned in their own homeworld after the use of biological weapons by the Dilgar. Next came the periods of the Blietzkrieg, Drazi counteroffensive, 2nd Drazi campaign, and blietzkrieg renewed.

In 2231 the Alacan crew reached Earth. By this time almost all League worlds had fallen to the Dilgar, except the Drazi and Abbai still imprisoned below the surface of their blockaded world. Earth heard the pleas of the crew and sympathized yet the Senate was going to remain uninvolved until the night prior to the vote the Dilgar invade the Markab, which was one jump away from EA space and happened to be on quite friendly terms with Earth. The outrage over this invasion of their allies and the war crimes by the Dilgar pushed the EA into war. Over the next year the EA liberated one race at a time, and then incorporated what little these could provide in terms of fleets and warriors until pushing the Dilgar back after a very long year of war in 2232.

The Dilgar were forced into seclusion in their own home system, which they never revealed was going to go nova. The guarding peacekeeping forces had but minutes to escape the system before it was destroyed a few years after the war ended. The Centauri remained uninvolved in the war and the Narns had made a pact of neutrality with the Dilgar and remained actively uninvolved in the war save for some war materials they sold to the Dilgar during the blietzkrieg period. As to weapons, the Dilgar were the first to develop particle weapons, while the League and Earth used less powerful plasma weaponry. During the war, Earth and the League managed to reverse engineer this tech and adapt it for themselves, replacing plasma weapons for particle. That's as brief as I can explain it.

To the team, again I apologize for such a long post.

__________________
One last stand to hold the line against the night...EA President

Posted by Skullar on 03-31-2003 08:49 AM:

Wonderful !

Now if THAT isnt enough to make up a stunning campaign .....

A great plot , lots of possible sub-plots , characters , crossover events , boy oh boy. .....

__________________
Freespace 2 : The Babylon Project team member
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon
-----------------------------
The sun is quite warm,
the universe is fairly large
and I have a loose mouth.

Posted by Skullar on 03-31-2003 08:49 AM:

Wonderful !

Now if THAT isnt enough to make up a stunning campaign .....

A great plot , lots of possible sub-plots , characters , crossover events , boy oh boy. .....

__________________
Freespace 2 : The Babylon Project team member
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon
-----------------------------
The sun is quite warm,
the universe is fairly large
and I have a loose mouth.

Posted by tomcat on 03-31-2003 10:30 AM:

Nehh...
I had 34 pages scan from AOG Dilgar wars campaign.Also SHips schematics etc..

__________________
eng Horatiu Popovici

Posted by tomcat on 03-31-2003 10:30 AM:

Nehh...
I had 34 pages scan from AOG Dilgar wars campaign.Also SHips schematics etc..

__________________
eng Horatiu Popovici
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