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Posted by Kurare on 04-11-2003 09:23 AM:

quote:
the magic of J.M.S ?


That must be it, in Star Wars it's George Lucas's physics. Ain't it funny how these can get out of hands: sci-fi has always provided scientists with challenges to meet -and some things that simply cannot exist and that are therefore unreachable dreams. Still we're figuring out reasonable explanations for those cool ideas of CG artists'... But I find few things more enjoyable than figuring out ways to explain unexplainable things by "common sense". And I don't seem to be the only one here

No, no, no, Edwin, by saying photons I meant photons, those packets of energy that are created in various interactions inside and outside nuclear level where Newtonian physics has to give way to newer innovations. I meant to put neutrons there as well but I wrote the text in such a hurry that I simply forgot . They are mentioned elsewhere in the text, though.

It is indeed difficult to control flows of non-charged particles, such as neutral atoms or neutrons, or photons that have no mass nor charge. They "feel" matter, though: as we all know, low-energy photons can reflect from a well-polished surface. Just go see yourself in the nearest mirror. Photons with higher energy, e.g. X-rays or gamma radiation "feel" matter only slightly and don't really bother themselves to change direction when meeting a solid surface (reflection is a phenomenom of the electron cell and already XUV starts to have too high energy for that). Neutrons can be controlled with suitable lenses, too: they obey Bragg's law and can be handled as de Broglie's waves. They are dualistic as well as electrons are: they have mass but for some reason they can be handled as packets of energy in simpler calculations, i.e. they have "wavelength" and "energy". This doesn't really help us, as can be noted: refraction and reflection both require the flow to pass through matter.

The last way to control almost anything is gravity. We don't know how to create it or how to go round it and perhaps we won't know it in our lifetime, but anyway it affects almost everything: gravity affects particles with mass -and photons without mass as well since (according to the theories that are considered reliable now) mass 'bends' the space itself causing the photon's route to follow these 'curves'. Streams of particles or photons can therefore be directed off course by enormously strong gravity. There's only one REALLY big problem: gravity always pulls, it never pushes. This requires further thinking... An ultra-hyper-super-powerful vacuum cleaner without anything to collect the dangerous dust into !

The Vorlons or the Shadows won't surely have a problem with this: they have practically infinite energy resources from Hyperspace via 'hyperspace taps', and I guess they would be able to direct energy from enemy weapons back to Hyperspace. (No, they did not do that... Yeah, I have found something they did not think of! *evil laugh* )

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Posted by Sigma957 on 04-11-2003 10:30 AM:

Could screens mean all defensive weaponary ie interceptors,tracking and targeting computers.Instead of saying all of this they just say screens so it cuts down on time to deploy such devices, just a thought.

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Posted by karajorma on 04-11-2003 09:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jokoto
I've been thinking about the "energy web" thing, and maybe it could be something in the hull construction to disrupt beams - and minbari beams would so effective because they don't care about magnetic interference. On the other hand, neither do photons, so the X-Ray lasers of EA wouldn't have any more difficulty either! If the beam defenses are something that conduct the heat away from the single point though, how could they be called "interceptors" and be "down" then, enabling easy penetration? How could we disrupt a flux of photons or other magnetically neutral particles like neutrons anyway?


Thats why I suggested a web of superconductors. I`m not just talking about electromagnetic effect. A superconductor would also conduct heat very well. That means that the beam would have a harder time burning through the hull as all the heat generated by the impact is drained away. Eventually superconductor net in the area hit by the beam would melt/boil away and then you`d start seeing real damage done to the ship.

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Posted by KillMeNow on 04-13-2003 12:41 AM:

ok first off there is no evidence that says the shields installed on the thrids space artifact were of alien orgins infactthe factthe lita knew exactly how to get through them suggests otherwise also the shields only appeared when the power core was started the shields came up not a seperate system adn if the aliens had installed tech in the device surely they could have gotten it started themselves

the vorlons and shadows - frankly the tech shadow tech didn't seem as advanced as the vorlon and its onyl minbari legend that has the shadows oldest when infact we knew loriens race is older and they taught the shadows and the vorlons

and i watched the episode where the shdows and vorlons go at it and there is some sort of distortions at the imapct point of the shadow beam on the vorlon tenticle

as for the what lenier said he said the white star usd the bio armor of the vorlons fine i acknowledged it in my last post but notice the face the white star is not a vorlon cruiser so the vorlons didn't give them all there tech

with there control over gravity, magnitism, telekenetic and all sort of other energies i dont doubt the vorlons coudl erect some energy barrier infact kosh himselve in his encounter suit used things like that to pin sheridan against a wall

as for the pilto screens/ shields not much difference the implication is teh same sheilds - but that was the pilot and lots changed so i discount that as jms descided to go for a less advanced tech for most races

now for ea vessels a super cooled condiuts running under the hull plating to coolit very usefula dn probally equally effective

magnetic sheilds against plasma weapon another good idea kenetic weapon well interceptors coudl be used

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Posted by Jokoto on 04-13-2003 01:15 AM:

Is he writing like that on purpose?


(I'm off to get some sleep, will attempt to decipher that text later.)

Posted by Jokoto on 04-13-2003 05:06 PM:

Lyta had the information from the vorlons that had fought against the aliens and tried to destroy the artifact before. It's no wonder they knew enough about it to get Sheridan through with the nuke. We don't know how close to it's destruction they got, or anything else about that time... If I recall correctly, the shield on the artifact looked just like the ones on the fighters... and nothing like any other would-be-shield-effects on vorlon ships (or suits). True, vorlons have some shielding tech, for example just look at the episode Falling Toward Apotheosis (season 4) where Kosh II is being booted out of the station... One other notable thing was Jason Ironheart's telekinetic curtain in the episode Mind War.

Again, where do you get the idea that "screens" indicate shields? Every other possibility for their meaning sounds more plausible. Come on, if you thought of a station that had to rotate for artificial gravity, what sense does it make to then give it such a superior technology like shields? This, combined with your claim that it was then removed afterwards for the series, makes this even more ludicrous... All the changes from pilot were actor changes that depend on people making their decisions and having other plans, and prop/set changes that are upgrades when more money is available. No changes in technology! It's fiction all the way, free from budgets and schedules. Your claim makes no sense.

Posted by Prophet on 04-13-2003 07:31 PM:

I really don't see why this thread is still alive. B5 never had shields. B5 aint never gonna have shields. And will you please stop thinking about Thirdspace. This is really getting boring...

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Posted by ravingpartyking on 04-13-2003 07:35 PM:

(drags the topic kicking and screaming back to the original question)

Icefire, even if its not really possible to make interceptors in game 'shoot down' incoming fire, could you at least include them as anti-fighter weapons (as they were used in severed dreams)

PS: Jokoto, how did someone who hates shields so much end up buying freespace

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Posted by Lady Rose on 04-13-2003 07:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Prophet
I really don't see why this thread is still alive. B5 never had shields. B5 aint never gonna have shields. And will you please stop thinking about Thirdspace. This is really getting boring...


I agree, no shields to TBP (well those blast/collision shield). Really a pointless argue and boring one too

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Posted by BabProj Team on 04-13-2003 08:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ravingpartyking
(drags the topic kicking and screaming back to the original question)

Icefire, even if its not really possible to make interceptors in game 'shoot down' incoming fire, could you at least include them as anti-fighter weapons (as they were used in severed dreams)

PS: Jokoto, how did someone who hates shields so much end up buying freespace

If you mean the turrets on the Omega...yes they are indeed used for anti-fighter operations to some degree of success. All capital ships have a number of anti-fighter weapons being towed around. No worries

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Posted by Jokoto on 04-13-2003 11:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ravingpartyking
PS: Jokoto, how did someone who hates shields so much end up buying freespace
What do you mean, "hates shields"?

Shields are cool. (and AT Field is even cooler)
Trying to claim B5 has any is not. It's simply... ridiculous.

Yeah, I won't mention turdspace again, having taken care of those claims... It's really best left forgotten.

The thread is still alive because I'd really like to see working interceptors in TBP, if a solution is figured out. I'm quite optimistic about it... At worst it would just increase cpu requirements somewhat, which eventually wouldn't be too bad.

Posted by Edwin on 04-13-2003 11:44 PM:

you know what i don' get? Why EVERYONE in B5 uses a weapon that travels trough real-space. Would it not be possible to open a jumphole and send shots into hyperspace? And wouldn't be possible to re-rout the shot and send back into real-space hurtling to the ship that fired it?. Or wouldn't it be more practical (if energy allowed it) to "project" a low-energy jump-point through a ship than shoot at it?

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Posted by KillMeNow on 04-13-2003 11:54 PM:

excuse me but there were lots of changes from teh pilot episode

minbari in the pilot epsiode were the oldest race on b5 not the vorlons

hell the minbari were an androgeous race

the centuari while in the series might not be the empire tehy once were in the pilot they were a tiny little empire who jstu wanted to follow along the Mighty earth alliance

as for the screens idont know the way it was said was very much raise sheilds - feel free to put up what you think she ment by screens at maximum

just seemed to to me alot was different in it pilot

hehe as i said before i dont think it owuld take several vorlon cruisers 2 dreadnaughts and about 50 fighters to dispatch b5 but tahts what they sent anh teh vorlons power was upp considerablly for the show and thank god they got rid of all those flashing lights thats was jsut tacky

and vorlons ahve shields no question about taht if you ask me they jsut work abit differently than say the third space alien ones

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Posted by KillMeNow on 04-13-2003 11:59 PM:

and yes opening a jump point on your target is a very effient method of killign them as the minbair used this tactic during the ea minbari war however the way i see jumpoints working is the energy ahs to reacha crital level before the point forms there is no half way house its either open or its not so if you used this methos if you miss of the ship evade then gets the opper hand your engines might not have recharged suffiently to escape - adn nope dont they wouldn't have toime to get a point opena dn no way of rerouting the shot back unless perahsp youra vorlon and can mold hyperspace

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Posted by Jokoto on 04-14-2003 06:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by KillMeNow
minbari in the pilot epsiode were the oldest race on b5 not the vorlons

hell the minbari were an androgeous race

the centuari while in the series might not be the empire tehy once were in the pilot they were a tiny little empire who jstu wanted to follow along the Mighty earth alliance

as for the screens idont know the way it was said was very much raise sheilds - feel free to put up what you think she ment by screens at maximum

just seemed to to me alot was different in it pilot

hehe as i said before i dont think it owuld take several vorlon cruisers 2 dreadnaughts and about 50 fighters to dispatch b5 but tahts what they sent anh teh vorlons power was upp considerablly for the show and thank god they got rid of all those flashing lights thats was jsut tacky

and vorlons ahve shields no question about taht if you ask me they jsut work abit differently than say the third space alien ones
[list=1]
  • Wrong. The minbari are the oldest ones of the younger races, and vorlons were never the oldest.
  • Androgynous minbari were planned, it would have included computer altered voice, but they didn't get it to sound good enough so they left it out.
  • I'm having trouble decoding that one, but you seem to be saying there was no change... The centauri had been a great empire some time ago, but not anymore, in the pilot and the series. That's clearly stated in both! It was the key element for Londo's story in the arc, it could not have changed.
  • Yeah, right... just because it sounds (just a little) like it could be misunderstood that way (if blissfully forgetting all the evidence against it), and you want shields sooo desperately, you convince yourself. Not anyone else though. (My impression of it has already been said.)
    [/list=1]
    Nothing worth mentioning was changed from the pilot. The plot, and thus all the foundations for it, had been in JMS's mind for years, so there can't be any inconsistencies like you claim.

    The vorlon fleet was overkill, of course. They wanted to send a clear message... To the viewers too, since we had no other knowledge about them yet. A single ship would have left an impression of just a normal race that wouldn't be such a big deal after all...

    This is a very stupid argument, I know it and will stop (provided that the engrishmaster doesn't blurp out any vein-popping stupidity crying for corrections).

    Posted by ltnarol on 04-14-2003 11:06 PM:

    The way I see it, shielding may not be such a bad idea on certain ships - organic ones. They wouldn't be called shields, they obviously wouldn't show up on the hud but shielding - on Shadow ships, Vorlon ships, and maybe even the Whitestar and Omega X - could be used to simulate the ability of those ships' organic hulls to absorb some degree of weapons energy. The effects would require tweeking, and this may not work with the Omega X since that has a rotating section, but it could still prove useful.

    What do yall think?

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    Posted by AlphaEpsilon on 04-15-2003 03:08 AM:

    why not use counter measures?

    On the subject of interceptors, why not design them as counter measures? Not having the interceptor track the incomming fire, but rather drawing the incomming fire to it.

    Just a thought I had (Something that doesn't happen often to be sure)

    AlphaEpsilon

    Posted by FlakBait on 04-15-2003 03:50 AM:

    The only way to draw fire to a certain point, other than where it was aimed-is a black hole. Or a quasar or something with a big nasty gravitational pull that you wouldn't want to be anywhere near.

    BTW-kill this thread.

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    Posted by tomcat on 04-15-2003 08:04 AM:

    FlakBait ..any reson to do so?

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    Posted by Krytor on 04-15-2003 03:47 PM:

    Re: why not use counter measures?

    quote:
    Originally posted by AlphaEpsilon
    On the subject of interceptors, why not design them as counter measures? Not having the interceptor track the incomming fire, but rather drawing the incomming fire to it.

    Just a thought I had (Something that doesn't happen often to be sure)

    AlphaEpsilon

    That actually sounds like a good idea. How does FS2 handle counter measures? do they contain code to actually draw the missiles to them? or is it just a random if it come in contact with it, it comes in contact with it? (Even if this works, some reworking of the Cap Ship AI will need to be done.)

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