VWBB - Do you think the Lucifer's shields...

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- FreeSpace 1/2 Discussion (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=33)
-- Do you think the Lucifer's shields... (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=7990)

Posted by SKYNET-011 on 01-22-2003 12:11 AM:

quote:
[i]Beam weapons only penetrate shields because of a bug in the FS2 code. If life were governed by bugs and mistakes, then the Colossus may still be alive due to the mission designer forgetting to beam-free-all the Sathanas [/B]

Someone should fix the shield bug and create a +Pierce-Shield function for beams.

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Posted by ns33 on 01-22-2003 12:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by karajorma
When you get to the shivans volition did a better job. Years after the games release we are no clearer about their motives, culture or even social structure.

lol, is that good or bad for the community. This thread and the "subspace" thread both started with such a simple sentence that it developed into multi-page scientific responses.

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Posted by karajorma on 01-22-2003 01:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ns33

lol, is that good or bad for the community. This thread and the "subspace" thread both started with such a simple sentence that it developed into multi-page scientific responses.

I think it's good. It means that campaign designers are free to decide what they think the shivans are up to.

quote:
Originally posted by Zolee
Well I have to agree that the Vasudans are too human - in their appearance and phisiology; but I still think Volition did a great job.
It only appears that we understand them, still nothing is known about their culture; check the tech reference - I love the way the whole is bent around language.
Just because we could figure their messige doesn't mean we understand them - the Vasudans are still just as mysterious as the Shivans.
We don't know anything about them, except that they live in a layered society lead by a king - but this could be anywhere from the Frank Empire, to an Enligtened Absolute Monarchy.
Furtheremore we don't know much about their everyday life - their ideas, their concept - almost nothing.
Only messages that they either want to do this or that in a mission - but never the reason!

It does actually say somewhere in FS2 (in one of the tech room briefing I believe) that the vasudans have a similar culture and politics to our own.

quote:
Originally posted by Zolee
Another note: if there is too much similarity to be accidental, then it's not. - Maybe the ancients did more than what meets the eye

Another theme from MindGames except that there it wasn`t the ancients doing the meddling

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Posted by ns33 on 01-22-2003 09:14 PM:

Last I remember from either BWO, BEL, or some other campaign, Ancients looks like bugs... I'll see if I can pull up a picture somewhere.

Posted by GalacticEmperor on 01-24-2003 01:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Zolee
We don't know anything about them, except that they live in a layered society lead by a king - but this could be anywhere from the Frank Empire, to an Enligtened Absolute Monarchy.

-The British.

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Posted by Holywhippet on 02-06-2003 03:19 AM:

There are two other points put forward about the Shivans in both games. In the first game it suggests that the Shivans are in some way preservers. They don't routinely go around killing all other species, they only attack the races that have entered subspace and made war on others. The second, as Bosch mentions, is that they have presumably wiped out a large number of races with each new civilisation built on the bones of the previous civilisations.

The Shivans annihilated Vasuda prime in such as way that it would be hard to tell that anyone used to live there.

As for the Lucifer vs. the Sathanas shielding question, it's worth asking what happened to the Shivans after the Lucifer was destroyed. They only reappeared after the Knossos device was reactivated. Actually there's a small contradication in that as well. Bosch says that the nebula is where the Ancients first encountered the Shivans. If that's the case why is there another Knossos device in the nebula and another again through the second device. I can only assume the Shivans they ran into in the nebula were defeated but they ran into more later. In any case I suspect the Lucifer fleet might have a sleeper fleet left by the Shivans after they defeated the ancients. The ancients turned off the Knossos device to try and stop the Shivan advance but the Lucifer fleet were already in their territory and wiped them out. They then went to "sleep" until the Terran-Vassudan war woke them up. The remaining Shivans kept advancing in technology and had all new craft when the second war broke out. Since they knew that the Lucifer had failed they didn't bother with shielded capital ships this time.

The main question I have is why they made Capella go supernova. I have a dim suspicion that the nebula might have been created when the Shivans created another supernova.

Posted by karajorma on 02-06-2003 12:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Holywhippet
In any case I suspect the Lucifer fleet might have a sleeper fleet left by the Shivans after they defeated the ancients. The ancients turned off the Knossos device to try and stop the Shivan advance but the Lucifer fleet were already in their territory and wiped them out. They then went to "sleep" until the Terran-Vassudan war woke them up. The remaining Shivans kept advancing in technology and had all new craft when the second war broke out. Since they knew that the Lucifer had failed they didn't bother with shielded capital ships this time.

The main question I have is why they made Capella go supernova. I have a dim suspicion that the nebula might have been created when the Shivans created another supernova.

Now that's an interesting idea

Everyone always assumes that the shivans used jump nodes too unstable for GTVA craft but it is possible that the shivans couldn`t reactivate the knossos and simply went to sleep waiting for a race to appear that could.

About what Bosch says in his monologues, I'd take everything with a pinch of salt. Bosch may have been correct but he might have simply been a loon. There is no evidence of other civilisations apart from the ancients (in fact Bosch simply asks "what if?" ) and he may have simply been wrong about the shivans first encountering the ancients in the nebula. In fact the ancients monologues from FS1 point against this (they talk about how the shivans wouldn`t die and how they couldn`t take shivan systems from them)

Posted by Razor on 02-06-2003 02:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Fury
I suppose that Lucifer was a prototype ship, or only one of it's class was ever made. There is probably some logical reason why only Lucifer has such super shields.

Perhaps Sathanas class is even older ship class than Lucifer is. It seems that Sathanases are even larger in numbers than regular destroyers are. Or so FS2 hints.

There was or is a theory about SD Lucifer. They say that the Shivan Hive Mind may have been on board, or the Lucifer it self so that may be why there was only one ship like that. You know, according to story, the Shivans were easely defeated by the GTA and PVN after the Lucifer has been destroyed.

Posted by Tar-Palantir on 02-07-2003 10:29 AM:

quote:
Bosch says that the nebula is where the Ancients first encountered the Shivans

Sorry to nitpick up it's acually a command brief in which this is said. Whether or not Bosch believed the Ancients discovered the Shivans in the nebula is not known. However he would have known that the best place to start looking for Shivans would be were the Ancients used to live. Also this briefing was before the discovery of the second Knossos so both Bosch and Command may have believed the quote above.

quote:
They say that the Shivan Hive Mind may have been on board, or the Lucifer it self

The 'theory' from the FS2 tech room is that the Shivans have some sort of hive mind. I personally would shy away from saying the Lucifer was the hive mind (or it was on board) since:

a) they seemed fine during the time of FS2. They could have rebuild the 'hive mind' during this time but this seems a bit iffy to me. The cental hub of any hive mind would be kept deep within Shivan space.

b) indirectly, the Shivans should have been completely disorientated after the destruction of the Lucifier. They did not seem like this during Silent Threat. Okay at this point V probably didn't have any idea's about the Shivans.

It may have been that a 'hub' of the hive mind was present on the Lucifier (and indeed on other Shivan ships elsewhere in the universe and these all connect the the main mind), but then you would still get a sort of b) point occuring.

Personally I think the Lucifer was just a 'command and control' ship which gave them the tactical edge over the GTA and PVN. The hive mind is probably more of a shared concesness ( <---I can't spell it!) which provides little more than an 'I'm here, your there' kind of signal.

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Posted by ns33 on 02-08-2003 01:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Okay at this point V probably didn't have any idea's about the Shivans.

ST was fan-made.

Take a look on the back of the FS2 box. "They are wondering what happened to their scouting party." I'm still not sure what that means, because if the then-formed GTVA had destroyed a "scouting party," the alliance would not have been informed of the first Shivan presence in the attack of the Aeolus cruiser.

When you speak of the Hive Mind, are you talking about the Borg-like processing of a central entity, something like the buggers (Ender's Game), or something like a nanoswarm (Prey)?? All "hive-minds", all different.

The only problem to the theory that the Shivans share a mind is, where is the central processing entity??

Posted by karajorma on 02-08-2003 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ns33

Take a look on the back of the FS2 box. "They are wondering what happened to their scouting party." I'm still not sure what that means, because if the then-formed GTVA had destroyed a "scouting party," the alliance would not have been informed of the first Shivan presence in the attack of the Aeolus cruiser.

I think they are refering to the Lucifer fleet as the scouting party.

quote:
Originally posted by ns33
The only problem to the theory that the Shivans share a mind is, where is the central processing entity??

Depends on exactly what kind of a hive mind they are (like you said) The borg in TNG appeared to have no central processing unit and were far scarier for it.
If the shivans are like that it gives the advantages of a hive mind with none of the "hey! Shoot me and your side wins" factor.

Posted by ns33 on 02-08-2003 07:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by karajorma
I think they are refering to the Lucifer fleet as the scouting party.

Oh my. That's not good news.

Posted by Deathstorm on 02-13-2003 11:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ns33

Oh my. That's not good news.

Actually it is, think about it:

The Lucifer was the vanguard, the Sathani were the main fleet...

What's bringing up the rear?

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Posted by ns33 on 02-13-2003 08:16 PM:

The thought itself that the Lucy was only a scouting party makes me cringe in... thought. You cant defeat such massive firepower. The Shivans were able to find their way aback into GTVA space after the destruction of the Sol - Delta Serpentis jump node, so its very likely that they'll make a come back again soon. Just depends on when, and where...

Posted by Bigbossman on 02-14-2003 12:28 AM:

Yeah it is pretty clear the lucifer was part of a scouting party (said so in the back of the freespace box ) And i reckon the hundreds of juggernauts were the main fleet. My prediction, thousands of icenis, led by the egyptian sungod RA will finally destroy the GTVA. Then the union will be saved by the detonation of bosch beer in the beta aquilae jump node, which will trap them in the system. hmmm... sounds good

By the way Kudos to ace on locking that thing, like a certain author would say...

"you da man now dawg"

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Posted by ns33 on 02-14-2003 03:38 AM:

HEADZ PARTY!! (There should be a headz emotion icon )

Posted by Holywhippet on 02-15-2003 03:00 AM:

The thing is, if the Lucifer fleet was just a scouting party, why was there no follow up? It's possible the Sathanas class ships couldn't travel through the unstable nodes that the Lucifer went through but at the end of Freespace the Terrans and Vasudans aren't in great shape so you'd think they could send more of the same type of ship they'd already sent.

I suppose you could argue that whatever node they came through might have only been temporarily open and they sent a scouting wing to check that part of space.

It just seems odd that the Shivans didn't show up again until Bosch reactivated the Knossos device. For that matter, was the Knossos creating an artificial jump node or was it stablising an existing one?

Posted by n4s7yn4pk1n on 02-15-2003 06:02 AM:

What if this is all a bad dream and at the end of the next Freespace game you wake up and realize you're late for work...

What if the collossus wasn't really destroyed, perhaps it was assimilated... Don't those beams look like tractors to you?

What if I told you I am the hive mind... and you will all be assimilated?

Would you LIKE to be assimilated? Even if it meant free continental breakfasts every mornign?

What if the Santanas are actually living breathing ships, and the lil "Shivans" are like cells...

What if... what if you REALLY crazy people decided to continue this list?

What if the Lucifer was named Santanas and the Santana named Lucifer.

What if the hive mind turned out to be soem black dude. "Yo what's up homie G. Prepare to be assimilated yo."

What if I shutup now?

What if...

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Posted by RangerKarl on 02-15-2003 06:37 AM:

Santana?
*imagines a Shivan strumming a guitar*
o_O

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Posted by n4s7yn4pk1n on 02-15-2003 07:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by RangerKarl
Santana?
*imagines a Shivan strumming a guitar*
o_O

Exactly...

WHAT IF!...

oh god.

That's it for my pointless posts at the day done half asleep because I slept at 2 AM last night... bye

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