VWBB - Hi, I'm a newbie, and I got a few questions...

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Posted by aldo_14 on 09-03-2002 09:35 PM:

Who says the Shivans only came from one jumpnode? They popped up in a lot of places....

Also, who's to say the Shivan force during the Great War was a part of the larger fleet in FS2, or that they originated from the same place? The 2 had very different tech levels and numbers of ships, and their actions were very different - the Sathanas fleet could very easily have finished the Lucifers job by destroying the capital of the GTVA (Beta Aquilae IIRC)

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Posted by Pren on 09-03-2002 11:29 PM:

I would like to return to a previous point that the shivans are a police race of some kind, they hunt down races that become to powerful, the inital fleet of shivans was comprised of very little compaired to the one in FS2. maybe the fist fleet is a perminant fleet is a sort of "patrol fleet" that roams the galaxy, and swats flys if they become to big, well that fleet was destoyed and didnt report back to the shivan HQ, so the shivans built a jugenaught fleet to deal with the GTVA.

anyhoo back to a point,

Tis thread is trying to astablish weather or not the shivans jumped from GD to Laramis and then to Ross 128, if this is true then why hasnt the 2nd shivan fleet (after the distruction of cappella) just jump from the node in GD to laramis and then to Ross 128?? did they forget about it?

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Posted by ShadowWolf_IH on 09-04-2002 12:23 AM:

or maybe a shivan patrol happened upon us and the Vasudans, while they were out looking for worlds with the raw materials that they needed to build things. Ships have mass, that means raw materials. It also keeps them extra terrestrial. They stumble upon two forces who are at war, and also stumble on a few worlds that can be stripped of everything that the shivans need. This force reports back to the main scout force, they observe and uncover our capitol worlds, and then the scout force goes to the comm nodes that we find in that mission in fs2, radio in of their discovery. Our tech level was far below theirs, we should have been easy pickings. When the shivan scouting force came in they drove straight for our key worlds, to take us down, and subjugate all of the space that we know. They failed. 32 years later, they return with a fleet of juggernauts, why didn't they come earlier? That's something you can answer, but i have a feeling that they had the juggs and the ability to wipe out stars in fs1. Who knows, maybe the main bulk of their fleet was busy elsewhere, destroying another star. And we won't even notice it for a couple million years, by the time that light reaches us and we see it go supernova.

So then why didn't they stay here 10,000 years ago? the half life of uranium238 is about 5600 years. It also takes about 10,000 years for coal to become a diamond. Or maybe the ancients didn't know how badly the shivans were hurt in that war, maybe the shivans went home to lick their wounds. Maybe they got busy elsewhere and inasmuch as the world was yet too young to offer what they needed they put it on the backburner and came back in say 8000 years to check it's development. That isn't alot of time geologically speaking, and they would know this.

Either way i don't see them being the police force of space faring races. I see them more as the schoolyard bully....kicking the crap out of you and taking your lunch money.

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Posted by JamieK on 09-04-2002 12:57 AM:

For ****e SAKE!!!

I There is a route from another area from Shivan Space.

Laramis is in GTVA controlled space, but beyond the Laramis Jumpnode is another system that IS linked to the Shivan Area.

They could have come from there.

Since there are 2 Jumps from N326 to Ross 128

Make that 3 Jumps from:

Kurma -to- N326 -to- Laramis -to- Ross 128

or

Prisini Nebula -to- N326 -to- Laramis -to- Ross 128

These are the access points from Shivan and GTVA Space.

During the T-V War Laramis was not discovered until you get the Flail Cannon.

Posted by ShadowWolf_IH on 09-04-2002 02:16 AM:

and in fs2, they come out of a destroyed knossos. We still don't know if the knossos stablized the node, or if the shivans can travel without them. There may be a cost to this. Imagine the amount of energy it would take to rip a hole in space and fall into subspace. Also imagine the inherent dangers of such a manouver. Maybe your answer lies right there. Maybe not. But it's a valid concept when you also take into account the folded space theory, and using electromagnetics to tear a hole in it, and punch through a million light years from you are. Couple the electromagnetics needed to do this, with the subspace theory, and you have the ability to drop in and out of subspace without nodes.....all you have to do is the math when you are in there, to tell you how long to stay. Then when the time is right, you drop out, maybe in a node, maybe where one once was. In that manner you drop out at your destination. Remember, the node to earth is closed, but subspace to it may still be open. Now there is a thought for a campaign. Earth may just be a stop along the way. And while we are at it.....maybe once the gtva figures this "Quantum Tunnelling" theory out (ok so i stole the name for lack of anything better to do with my time) We will realize that we can travel to our nearest neighbor through the shortest route. Or maybe not. The thing is, the ambiguity of fs2 leaves us with more questions than answers about the shivans. The brightside to this is, we get to exercise our imaginations.

Posted by karajorma on 09-04-2002 10:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Pren
Tis thread is trying to astablish weather or not the shivans jumped from GD to Laramis and then to Ross 128, if this is true then why hasnt the 2nd shivan fleet (after the distruction of cappella) just jump from the node in GD to laramis and then to Ross 128?? did they forget about it?

Very good point

It's possible that the node had become unstable in the intervening years but it is definately a strike against the theory.

quote:
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
When the shivan scouting force came in they drove straight for our key worlds, to take us down, and subjugate all of the space that we know. They failed. 32 years later, they return with a fleet of juggernauts, why didn't they come earlier? That's something you can answer, but i have a feeling that they had the juggs and the ability to wipe out stars in fs1.

I can think of two answers off the top of my head.

1) The Lucifer was a one off. It was the only ship able to open the Ross 128 node. The Shivans built it 8000 years ago and have since forgotten how to build more. This theory does explain why the GTVA didn`t face a fleet of Lucifers in FS2.

2) The shivan force encountered in FS1 was a deep space scout party which was supposed to be out of contact with the rest of the shivans. (Too far from shivan space to communicate) for several centuries. Until the events of FS2 the rest of the shivans probably didn`t even know about the existance of the GTA and PVN.

quote:
Originally posted by JamieK
For ****e SAKE!!!

I There is a route from another area from Shivan Space.

Laramis is in GTVA controlled space, but beyond the Laramis Jumpnode is another system that IS linked to the Shivan Area.

They could have come from there.

Since there are 2 Jumps from N326 to Ross 128

Make that 3 Jumps from:

Kurma -to- N326 -to- Laramis -to- Ross 128

or

Prisini Nebula -to- N326 -to- Laramis -to- Ross 128

These are the access points from Shivan and GTVA Space.

Let me get this straight. You look at an UNOFFICIAL node map from the Behind Enemy Lines camapign and then shout at us for not taking it as canon. Do a search. Find the official node map and then show me a link to shivan space.

quote:
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
and in fs2, they come out of a destroyed knossos. We still don't know if the knossos stablized the node, or if the shivans can travel without them.

Not certain what point you`re making here. The shivans use the Gamma Draconis - Nebula link after the the knossos is destroyed but it is mentioned that over 8000 years the knossos has stablised the portal. The GTVA then travel into the nebula so it can`t be that different from a normal jump node.

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Posted by JamieK on 09-04-2002 11:26 AM:

well, i don't think there is an offical node map.

and i was NOT moaning at you......you were thinking that i meant that the Shivans jumped from Laramis to Ross 128, but that dude might be right about them being able to make a jump to Subspace from anywhere.........we need Nav Bouys and subspace nodes, what if they use their own lock on.

very curious indeed.

Posted by karajorma on 09-04-2002 01:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JamieK
well, i don't think there is an offical node map.

Guess I must have been dreaming then when I first saw this

[URL=http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads.cfm]Take a good look at where it came from.[/URL]

quote:
Originally posted by JamieK
and i was NOT moaning at you......you were thinking that i meant that the Shivans jumped from Laramis to Ross 128, but that dude might be right about them being able to make a jump to Subspace from anywhere.........we need Nav Bouys and subspace nodes, what if they use their own lock on.
[/B]

While I`m not going to say that shivans can`t jump without jump nodes it isn`t an ability they used at any point in either FS1 or FS2. Don`t believe me? Well listen to the words of the great man himself.

quote:
Originally said by Admiral Petrach in mission Their Finest Hour
Skeptics have argued the Shivans made intersystem jumps without using nodes in Ross 128, Ikeya, Vega, and other systems at the outbreak of the Great War. However, scientists assure us this plan will work. Though Shivans have used uncharted nodes and nodes too unstable for Terran and Vasudan vessels, they are as dependent on jump nodes as we are.

Posted by JamieK on 09-04-2002 01:43 PM:

erm, that node map only shows systems controlled by the GTVA and a little bit of Shivan Space.

But where did the first Shiven Fleet come from?

Posted by karajorma on 09-04-2002 04:28 PM:

Don`t blame me. Go complain at Volition. As for where the shivans came from no one knows. That's why it isn`t on the map! The best you could get was a link from Ross 128 or Laramis going outside of GTVA space.

Posted by Cetanu on 09-04-2002 04:55 PM:

They used a Knossos in Ross 128... play FS2 on PXO and find out more about that portal

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Posted by JamieK on 09-05-2002 01:44 AM:

well, i don't think that the mission you are refering to is an offical one.

Besides, i have tried to play online, but those dudes are just concerned with getting points.

I just want to have fun and it isn't fun getting shot every second.

Posted by Cetanu on 09-05-2002 03:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JamieK
well, i don't think that the mission you are refering to is an offical one.

Since V never told something official, I don't care if the refered one is official

quote:

... but those dudes are just concerned with getting points.

mmm, a generalization

quote:
...it isn't fun getting shot every second.

Sounds more like you got angry about not being able to survive. Some take it as a hint to do some training, other leave. But do what you want, both choices are ok for me

Cheers

Posted by JamieK on 09-05-2002 05:25 PM:

well, my cousin brought FreeSpace 1 when it first came out in the USA and he gave it to me when he visited a few days after getting it.

But even after a few days, everyone say that they have finished the whole game on INSANE.

Now they had to be lying!!

Posted by Cetanu on 09-05-2002 05:27 PM:

Mmm, don't know about that - I was refering to FS2 and its online community

Posted by Pren on 09-06-2002 01:10 PM:

quote:
But even after a few days, everyone say that they have finished the whole game on INSANE.

Yeah ur right, how many cups of coffee would that take?

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Posted by planetbeing on 09-10-2002 05:35 AM:

In the original FS1 campaign, I think a briefing specifically said the Shivans came out of an uncharted jump node... I am inclined to believe that. However, I have another theory that may be plausible.

We know that the Shivans invaded the Ancient's systems, of which the Terrans and the Vasudans now occupy a large portion. It may be conceivable that after the Shivans annihilated the Ancients, they withdrawn to Ross 128 and Ikeya and lay dormant, undetected by sensors (similarly to how the Knossos device lay dormant until it was activated). For some unkown reason, the Shivans awoke, launched their attack force (which are all grouped into this area... space is big... they can easily hide in a debris field or something), and the rest is history. Holes: Why did the Shivans wait so long to launch their attack force, and why did they withdraw all the way accross the map to Ross 128 and Ikeya. The uncharted jump node thing probably remains the most plausible (and sanctioned) explanation.

As for why they didn't use this ability afterwards... I think it may be that it can only be used in a light scouting force like the Lucifer fleet in the Great War. The box cover in Freespace 2 suggests that that was only a scouting fleet... I tend to agree, as the Great War relics are greatly inferior to FS2 GTVA and Shivan technology. I think the Helios bombs and beam cannons can penetrate Lucifer's shields... only technology available during the Great War can't. I imagine the Sathanas to be way more powerful than the Lucifer.

As for the purposes for the Shivans... The first incursion is most likely one of genocide. They were destroying homeworlds, after all. The second one, I think, was simply the destruction of the Capella. In fact, they were doing it rather hurriedly and seemed to be in a panic. They destroyed their own ships, and many Sathanas Juggernauts failed to jump out (I think because of mechanical failure) after they started the supernova reaction. I think it was something of a last-ditch effort, which may mean the GTVA was hurting them more than it knows.

I think the destruction of Capella is a direct consequence of Bocsh's capture. I think some information they got out of Bocsh prompted this action... the 90 Shivan Juggernauts were detected after Bocsh's capture, I think. I think Capella was their only goal... if they were after genocide, they could've easily sent the juggernauts through GTVA space, leaving 5 at each system or something, and crushing all resistance. It would've been so easy. I think the Shivans have changed their minds about the GTVA, anyway. Or uh, something changed their minds for them.

Personally, I think all indications and "hints" from the series point towards Shivans as hive-minded biomechanical tools created by a far superior race in order to protect lesser races by wiping out all other subspace-capable civilizations. They are not after resources... Their sole purpose is destruction. I think Bocsh may have appealled to their boss or something or uh... even more intriguing... maybe convinced them that he is their boss.

Another intriguing thing is a comment by Petrarch about the Shivans trying to find a way home... Hmm. Maybe they are blowing up suns to provide themselves with habitats (i.e. they live in nebulas?). Whatever happened to the sun that created the nebula beyond the Knossos is probably what happened to Capella.

Posted by karajorma on 09-10-2002 09:24 AM:

Welcome to the forums planetbeing.

The shivans didn`t show any sign of clocking technology in the FS series but if you say that the shivans retreated to Wolf 359 or one of the other systems that was discovered between FS1 and FS2 your theory does make sense. (Like my theory it also explains why the shivans didn`t launch any attacks between FS1 and FS2).

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