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-- A New VS. Topic: Ground Forces (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=6710)

now this is stupid topic
How the hell will the F16 find a hidden tank to fire that maverick thing?
Now from where did ugot that conclusion that US won by them self WW2?
***this mean that u don't know squat about ww2..***
british had more experienced troups than US..
not to mention Russian meat grinder..that was eating veterans german divisions one after other ..
italian...get serious...they attacked Greece and failed like looser they are..

about tiger tank punchig a hole in M1A1..possible..does someof you know the Krupp 88 PAK parameters? like muzzle velocity , armor penetration, kynetic energy of the projectile..

is supect some people still belive that M1A1 is the best tank in the world...witch is not.

__________________
eng Horatiu Popovici

Yep, Russia did kill the most German troops at a terrible loss. They were the only ones who could take Berlin. But without the US and UK suppling them with raw materials and tanks until they finished relocating their factories (had to evacuate everything from the Ukraine) they would have fallen. With the Baltic convoys they managed to hold the German's off until winter, when they got their amazing T52's off the line, whose armour even Tiger tanks had trouble penetrating, on a par with modern tanks today.

Challenger tanks are the best. Natch. Fast, heavy and can be airlifted.

As I said, British had more experienced troops. But they couldn't use them near the end, they had to be kept safe to train the fresh ones, who had to be used carefully as well.

I did not say the US won the war by themselves. That is a view for the type of people who watch and woo-hoo along to Judge Judy and other shuddersome spawn of satanic television. The view that the US were just lifting the credit and won merely through air support and the hard work of other allies is equally ludicrious. I'm actually English, and feel that the US is hard done by on that account. Of course, I'm annoyed with them over setting up puppet dictators around the world, overthrowing legitimate socialist democracies in the latin countries, having a terrible record for worker rights and having a corrupt and destructive mega-corporate system and greed-is-good ethos, combined with self-deluding belief that their political system is free and fair. But I do give them credit where it is due. WWII, Roosevelt, the birth of liberating music and literature, creation of the teenager, having an ideal to live up to and... of course... The Simpsons.

I admire the Russian soldiers as well as the US ones. But Stalin was a worse dictator than Hitler, at least Hitler was insane and did not kill his own friends. (Or at least fell out with them before killing them) So I don't always feel as comfortable praising the Soviets in the WWII context, though the troops were heroic. (Well, the KGB artilery batalions sort of helped, perhaps they were exported into space to 'encourage' the morale of the starfury pilots in the Minbari war?)

This, thank god, is the last I shall speak on this board on such a weighty and depressing topic. Apologies for stupid length of posts, by the way.

__________________
"If you can keep your head whilst all around you lose...
Ugh! Spilt my ink!
Agh! Ink on my hands!
Eek! Ink on my shirt!
Agh! My only hope! The window!
....
AIEEEEE!"

Yep, Russia did kill the most German troops at a terrible loss. They were the only ones who could take Berlin. But without the US and UK suppling them with raw materials and tanks until they finished relocating their factories (had to evacuate everything from the Ukraine) they would have fallen. With the Baltic convoys they managed to hold the German's off until winter, when they got their amazing T52's off the line, whose armour even Tiger tanks had trouble penetrating, on a par with modern tanks today.

Challenger tanks are the best. Natch. Fast, heavy and can be airlifted.

As I said, British had more experienced troops. But they couldn't use them near the end, they had to be kept safe to train the fresh ones, who had to be used carefully as well.

I did not say the US won the war by themselves. That is a view for the type of people who watch and woo-hoo along to Judge Judy and other shuddersome spawn of satanic television. The view that the US were just lifting the credit and won merely through air support and the hard work of other allies is equally ludicrious. I'm actually English, and feel that the US is hard done by on that account. Of course, I'm annoyed with them over setting up puppet dictators around the world, overthrowing legitimate socialist democracies in the latin countries, having a terrible record for worker rights and having a corrupt and destructive mega-corporate system and greed-is-good ethos, combined with self-deluding belief that their political system is free and fair. But I do give them credit where it is due. WWII, Roosevelt, the birth of liberating music and literature, creation of the teenager, having an ideal to live up to and... of course... The Simpsons.

I admire the Russian soldiers as well as the US ones. But Stalin was a worse dictator than Hitler, at least Hitler was insane and did not kill his own friends. (Or at least fell out with them before killing them) So I don't always feel as comfortable praising the Soviets in the WWII context, though the troops were heroic. (Well, the KGB artilery batalions sort of helped, perhaps they were exported into space to 'encourage' the morale of the starfury pilots in the Minbari war?)

This, thank god, is the last I shall speak on this board on such a weighty and depressing topic. Apologies for stupid length of posts, by the way.

__________________
"If you can keep your head whilst all around you lose...
Ugh! Spilt my ink!
Agh! Ink on my hands!
Eek! Ink on my shirt!
Agh! My only hope! The window!
....
AIEEEEE!"

Tomcat: FLIR. Plus, if a tank moves, the E-8 JSTARS sees it. Makes hunting them down pretty easy

Nervous Pete: Uh, maybe you should go re-read that part o' the history books... The Imperial Air Arm was shattered at Midway, losing four of their six primary carriers and thus two-thirds of their finest aviators and the remnants were annihilated in the Marianas. That was 1942 and 1944, respectively. The Army's airplanes were taken out more via attrition, the island-hopping campaign by both Marine air wings (the craziness at Guadalcanal, then island-hopping with F4Us among other planes) and Naval air wings (striking from TF38/58 once it got formed)

You're really overestimating the American loss ratios, and in early 1943, the superior American planes arrived, and it was not very long before the Americans learned how to fight with their new planes, nor was it very long until they started winning consistently. By 1945 the Japanese were a shattered wreck of a nation using suicide bombers as almost their only offensive air tactic. I've never read anything that contradicts what I just said, so, I'd like to know where you're getting your information from...

Oh and in WWI, American losses were relatively low. Consider they only joined in 1917, and pretty much, the Germans and Austrians had fought the French and the British to a standstill. Neither side had much left to give, and with the thought of the US Army coming to play, it was kind of like the one little weight that tipped the scales. The US didn't actually play much of an active role in WWI, but the fact that a fresh and new army - even an inexperienced and underequipped one - was coming to play pretty much spelt doom for the Central Powers. Still, the majority of the work was done by Britain and France. By majority I mean 80-90% ... really.

__________________
[url="http://www.dopefish.com"]swim...swim...hungry...[/url]

Tomcat: FLIR. Plus, if a tank moves, the E-8 JSTARS sees it. Makes hunting them down pretty easy

Nervous Pete: Uh, maybe you should go re-read that part o' the history books... The Imperial Air Arm was shattered at Midway, losing four of their six primary carriers and thus two-thirds of their finest aviators and the remnants were annihilated in the Marianas. That was 1942 and 1944, respectively. The Army's airplanes were taken out more via attrition, the island-hopping campaign by both Marine air wings (the craziness at Guadalcanal, then island-hopping with F4Us among other planes) and Naval air wings (striking from TF38/58 once it got formed)

You're really overestimating the American loss ratios, and in early 1943, the superior American planes arrived, and it was not very long before the Americans learned how to fight with their new planes, nor was it very long until they started winning consistently. By 1945 the Japanese were a shattered wreck of a nation using suicide bombers as almost their only offensive air tactic. I've never read anything that contradicts what I just said, so, I'd like to know where you're getting your information from...

Oh and in WWI, American losses were relatively low. Consider they only joined in 1917, and pretty much, the Germans and Austrians had fought the French and the British to a standstill. Neither side had much left to give, and with the thought of the US Army coming to play, it was kind of like the one little weight that tipped the scales. The US didn't actually play much of an active role in WWI, but the fact that a fresh and new army - even an inexperienced and underequipped one - was coming to play pretty much spelt doom for the Central Powers. Still, the majority of the work was done by Britain and France. By majority I mean 80-90% ... really.

__________________
[url="http://www.dopefish.com"]swim...swim...hungry...[/url]

Well, the Russian troops may have been heroic, but it got them killed. How do you think we Finns managed to hold them off as long as we did? There were swarms of them but they came assaulting us by just running trough the field. We just took whatever weapons were available and shot as many as we could. Actually we pushed pretty far in to east. But when Germany surrendered our eastern neighbour threw more troops at us. Swarms of men quickly became a horde. Needless to say, ruskies managed to break trought our lines. Good thing they didn't walk all over us.
So russian soldiers are heroic and fearless. But not that good. Considering how much we were outnumbered...

Tigers had trouble penetrating some those Russian steel monsters at the end of WWII, so what makes you think that it could penetrate any modern tank skins? It's possible, depending where the shot hits and in what angle. And with a little luck...

__________________
"I'm not saying anything. I didn't say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now." -Dukath

FREDer for [url=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/index.htm]Honour of Omega[/url]
Creator of Movements in the Mist campaign

Oh ****! Those idiots did it.

Well, the Russian troops may have been heroic, but it got them killed. How do you think we Finns managed to hold them off as long as we did? There were swarms of them but they came assaulting us by just running trough the field. We just took whatever weapons were available and shot as many as we could. Actually we pushed pretty far in to east. But when Germany surrendered our eastern neighbour threw more troops at us. Swarms of men quickly became a horde. Needless to say, ruskies managed to break trought our lines. Good thing they didn't walk all over us.
So russian soldiers are heroic and fearless. But not that good. Considering how much we were outnumbered...

Tigers had trouble penetrating some those Russian steel monsters at the end of WWII, so what makes you think that it could penetrate any modern tank skins? It's possible, depending where the shot hits and in what angle. And with a little luck...

__________________
"I'm not saying anything. I didn't say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now." -Dukath

FREDer for [url=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/index.htm]Honour of Omega[/url]
Creator of Movements in the Mist campaign

Oh ****! Those idiots did it.

quote:

---

Tomcat: FLIR. Plus, if a tank moves, the E-8 JSTARS sees it. Makes hunting them down pretty easy

---

__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

quote:

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Tomcat: FLIR. Plus, if a tank moves, the E-8 JSTARS sees it. Makes hunting them down pretty easy

---

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Uh-huh. With WWI the vast majority of the work was done by Commonwealth and French forces. The US were the fresh blood, that tipped the balance. When they entered the Germans knew it was hopeless to even hold on to the captured territory, which they had been hoping to at least achieve. When I was thinking of losses in that context for the US, I was thinking of percentage lost in a battle compared to the more experienced forces and not the total lost compared to other countries counting the entire length of the war.

Hmm. Will have to check again. But what do I know, eh? I did ancient history. But Kurt Vonnegut is a must read when it comes to horrors of war. His book Slaughterhouse 5 is also painfully funny at times.

Now I'd like to compare the Narn to the hoplite forces of ancient greece. A Narn heavy plasma cannon is much like the hoplite battle formation of interlocking shields and rugby style... AIEEE!

(Pete is clubbed to death with a spade by a right minded board member)

__________________
"If you can keep your head whilst all around you lose...
Ugh! Spilt my ink!
Agh! Ink on my hands!
Eek! Ink on my shirt!
Agh! My only hope! The window!
....
AIEEEEE!"

Uh-huh. With WWI the vast majority of the work was done by Commonwealth and French forces. The US were the fresh blood, that tipped the balance. When they entered the Germans knew it was hopeless to even hold on to the captured territory, which they had been hoping to at least achieve. When I was thinking of losses in that context for the US, I was thinking of percentage lost in a battle compared to the more experienced forces and not the total lost compared to other countries counting the entire length of the war.

Hmm. Will have to check again. But what do I know, eh? I did ancient history. But Kurt Vonnegut is a must read when it comes to horrors of war. His book Slaughterhouse 5 is also painfully funny at times.

Now I'd like to compare the Narn to the hoplite forces of ancient greece. A Narn heavy plasma cannon is much like the hoplite battle formation of interlocking shields and rugby style... AIEEE!

(Pete is clubbed to death with a spade by a right minded board member)

__________________
"If you can keep your head whilst all around you lose...
Ugh! Spilt my ink!
Agh! Ink on my hands!
Eek! Ink on my shirt!
Agh! My only hope! The window!
....
AIEEEEE!"

quote:

---

[i]
Tigers had trouble penetrating some those Russian steel monsters at the end of WWII, so what makes you think that it could penetrate any modern tank skins? It's possible, depending where the shot hits and in what angle. And with a little luck... [/B]

---

quote:

---

[i]
Tigers had trouble penetrating some those Russian steel monsters at the end of WWII, so what makes you think that it could penetrate any modern tank skins? It's possible, depending where the shot hits and in what angle. And with a little luck... [/B]

---

hmm

FLIR u said..well that is why the hit so "many" tanks in Kosovo..

I said hidden in normal european country side not Iraq

nervous pete- there was no T52 during ww2...that nomenclator mean Tank model 1952..the biggest tank was the IS3(actually a Klimov Voroshilov tank -KV).

Do u know what did they send to russia mostly?? friggin Double Deuce's 2.5t trucks...Us and UK tanks where considere for good reason as weaker than russians designes..andyes food supllies

well tiger had problem in last part that is why they where suppose to be replaced by Koenig Tiger..or even by Maus...btw armor penetration of a Tiger at 2000m using PZGr40(i think) was some 120mm.

T72 can penetrate M1A1..at 1000m.. this by using the Normal APFSDS ....well with AT-11/SVIR at a greater distance...due to the fact that it use main gun to launch laser beamriders ATMissiles.

but is a know fact that russians like us seld scaled down hardware for export..

__________________
eng Horatiu Popovici

hmm

FLIR u said..well that is why the hit so "many" tanks in Kosovo..

I said hidden in normal european country side not Iraq

nervous pete- there was no T52 during ww2...that nomenclator mean Tank model 1952..the biggest tank was the IS3(actually a Klimov Voroshilov tank -KV).

Do u know what did they send to russia mostly?? friggin Double Deuce's 2.5t trucks...Us and UK tanks where considere for good reason as weaker than russians designes..andyes food supllies

well tiger had problem in last part that is why they where suppose to be replaced by Koenig Tiger..or even by Maus...btw armor penetration of a Tiger at 2000m using PZGr40(i think) was some 120mm.

T72 can penetrate M1A1..at 1000m.. this by using the Normal APFSDS ....well with AT-11/SVIR at a greater distance...due to the fact that it use main gun to launch laser beamriders ATMissiles.

but is a know fact that russians like us seld scaled down hardware for export..

__________________
eng Horatiu Popovici

quote:

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Originally posted by tomcat
well tiger had problem in last part that is why they where suppose to be replaced by Koenig Tiger..or even by Maus...btw armor penetration of a Tiger at 2000m using PZGr40(i think) was some 120mm.

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quote:

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Originally posted by tomcat
well tiger had problem in last part that is why they where suppose to be replaced by Koenig Tiger..or even by Maus...btw armor penetration of a Tiger at 2000m using PZGr40(i think) was some 120mm.

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Argh! I meant T36! Honestly!

Gngh. My brain is conspiring to make me look like a dullard. Humble apologies.

Oh, and I forgot to say, whoever did the briefing voice for the demo TBP did a top notch job. Almost TV show quality.

PS: Buy Ultraviolet on DVD. It is the best UK sci-fi show in a long long time.

__________________
"If you can keep your head whilst all around you lose...
Ugh! Spilt my ink!
Agh! Ink on my hands!
Eek! Ink on my shirt!
Agh! My only hope! The window!
....
AIEEEEE!"

Argh! I meant T36! Honestly!

Gngh. My brain is conspiring to make me look like a dullard. Humble apologies.

Oh, and I forgot to say, whoever did the briefing voice for the demo TBP did a top notch job. Almost TV show quality.

PS: Buy Ultraviolet on DVD. It is the best UK sci-fi show in a long long time.

__________________
"If you can keep your head whilst all around you lose...
Ugh! Spilt my ink!
Agh! Ink on my hands!
Eek! Ink on my shirt!
Agh! My only hope! The window!
....
AIEEEEE!"

You know, we've positively derailed this topic so far off-topic, it's not even funny.

*sigh*

Anyone care to bring it back on topic? Else it's gonna have to get moved...

__________________
[url="http://www.dopefish.com"]swim...swim...hungry...[/url]