VWBB - Gadzooks! A picture!

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Posted by Mr Carrot on 12-23-2001 08:13 PM:

Which is why destroyers should never be deployed without significant anti fighter screens!

I have to agree Ace, in the fs2 campaign they send out what 6 wings on a scouting mission and a mighty 2 for a last ditch defence of the destroyer itself, its rediculous, i mean it made good game play and the mission hard, but surely having a few fighters vs. a lot of wing after wing of bombers isnt as good as having a huge bomber swarm vs. a defensive fighter swarm?

Posted by Zeronet on 12-23-2001 08:32 PM:

yeah, its funny, the baddest ship in the fleet gets its figterbays damaged. Farfetched but needed for good gameplay.

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Posted by IceFire on 12-23-2001 10:05 PM:

Not that farfetched. What about the carrier battles of the Pacific during World War II. The mightest ships in the fleet, the Hornet, the Enterprise, and the Lexington. I think of those only the Enterprise walked away without damage. It was a big battle and stuff happens.

Its not that inconcievable that an enemy attack force was able to break through, destroy or outwit the Aquitane's defenses, and take out her fighterbay, damage the engine systems, and get away.

In war, nothing goes to plan and anything is possible. Sometimes you guys think too much in absolutes.

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Posted by Zeronet on 12-23-2001 10:55 PM:

I was talking about the Collosus. The toughest ship in the fleel with over 150 fighter wings and its Figherbay gets destroyed.

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Posted by Mr Carrot on 12-24-2001 12:58 AM:

I mean its not just the aquitain or the collosus its every ship every time!

Posted by George on 12-24-2001 03:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Zeronet
I was talking about the Collosus. The toughest ship in the fleel with over 150 fighter wings and its Figherbay gets destroyed.

Whos to say that the Collosus didn't have its fighterbay disabled during a beam fight with another cap ship.

Posted by Cepheid on 12-24-2001 03:55 PM:

Remember, the Colossus was not designed with the Sathanas juggernauts in mind. It was built to be able to combat something as powerful as a Lucifer. And it took 20 years to build, so by the time it was done, it probably wasn't fully modernized. Despite its great firepower, it really couldn't measure up in modern warfare. (I'll bet if the decision had been that of the tax payers, the [G] never would have been constructed.)

It also seems to me that a destroyer really wouldn't need too much fighter support, especially a Hecate. I have to believe these things are perfectly capable of protecting themselves. That's one of the primary factors taken into consideration during their design. I find it hard to belive much could get through all those turrets and beam emitters to its VERY THICK AND DURABLE hull plating.

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Posted by Mr Carrot on 12-24-2001 03:55 PM:

And Ice these carriers at no point had their flight decks out of commision for longer than a couple of hours. At any rate they had most of their combat ready squadrans up in the air at most times in the battle. Thus when a ship which is blatantly meant to be the evolution of the destroyer concept to carrier cant launch more than 2 wings in defense of itself is rahter annoying.

Also the Stahanas the greatest threat to GTVA survival since the Lucifer, a mighty 1 wing is sent to disable its beam turrets and a destroyer is deployed with no fighter cover, if i was the phonecia captain id be sat there launching all me wings before the sathanas got there! (no jokes about women captains )

Its not just disapointment in snesbile tactics by command its more the lack of battles that could have been the most exciting in the game, these ships are sat there with masses and masses of fighters and they NEVER use them even when they are in dire peril!

To cite a tv show look at Babylon 5, the EA forces deploy their fighters en masse at the earliest sign of trouble. They are an asset, one might as well use them!

Just imagine you are on guard around the Aquitane with an escort of a Deimos and aeolus. Guard means at least one wing of superiority fighters and one of interceptors. A Ravana jumps in accopmanied by 2 cain class cruisers and with pretty much all the fighter and bomber wings the ship is going to deploy (maybe some reserves) but not just one wing! The Aquitaine deploys its emergancy wings (for a ship of 10k crew would it be too hard to keep at least 2 fighter wings and a bomber wing on standby the whole time, as has been the case since carrier warfare matured in 1939). Here we have a huge furball going on with the 2 destoyers trading blows, the deimos moves up to take out the cains and the aeolus hangs back to cover the destoyer. As the 2 battle groups move closer anti cap beams start to criss cross the huge fighter melee taking place in the area between.

The initiative gained by the attacker coming in with all its wings deployed is offset by the skill off the reaction wings (alpha 1, what can you say!). The mission is still hard as there is a vast number of targets, so instead of minimising damage in an attritional wave after wave style attack you have to do an all or nothing adreniline filled 5-10 minutes of scything through countless shivan vessels, all the while the capships engage each other as opposed to the usual destroy the bombers then all gang up on the enemy cap ship, you do your job the big guns will do theirs at the same time.

After about 8 mins or so the aquitane will start launching additional wings so by the end of the battle (won by the GTVA due to slightly superior capital odds (deimos) and superior fighters) there should be at least 8 GTVA wings (of which how many of them arnt just empty red dots is up to the ai) flying about, thats 36 fighters out of 120? A thrid of the fighter compliment up to participate in a major engagement, that isnt that much, but it sounds massive in FS terms because it never happens!

Though the mission sounds easy due to the large number of freindlies, the hardest part would be the start where you have to buy the ship critical minutes/seconds to deploy extra wings.

Posted by IceFire on 12-24-2001 03:56 PM:

quote:
I was talking about the Collosus. The toughest ship in the fleel with over 150 fighter wings and its Figherbay gets destroyed.

Thats what the German navy was saying when a British bi-plane torpedo bomber nailed the Bismark battleship (largest in the fleet) in the ruddger, forever jamming it and ultimately causing the scuttling of the vessel. A SINGLE torpedo bomber! How about the HMS Hood....a single well placed shot right down the stack and she blew....the most powerful vessel in the British navy, gone....in a single well placed shot.

Once again, its not a matter of how strong this or that is, its a matter of luck, skill, and fate.

When did the Colossus fighterbay get destroyed? Infact, I don't think they said the Aquitanes bay was destroyed, although I suppose that is possible.

It just means its obstructed and unable to launch fighters. If half of the bulkheads are now twisted into a Christmas tree like shape on your fighterdeck, then you have a problem.....screw the number of hitpoints assigned in a game engine.

It has to do with story, but you guys are thinking in absolutes and impossibilites when infact the only thing that exists is ambiguity and the unknown.

When was the Colossus bay damaged?

Posted by Cepheid on 12-24-2001 04:08 PM:

Of course, the Hood was nailed by the Bismark, which was by no means a torpedo bomber. And we can all assert through experience that one bomb of any type will not bring a Hecate-class destroyer down.

Posted by Cepheid on 12-24-2001 04:11 PM:

::CROWDS CHEER, FIREWORKS EXPLODE, AN ORCHESTRA PLAYS A FANFARE:: HOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!! THAT WAS MY 100TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by IceFire on 12-24-2001 04:26 PM:

quote:
And we can all assert through experience that one bomb of any type will not bring a Hecate-class destroyer down.

In terms of a game and a set number of hitpoints to determine damage.

But we're not talking about that, or at least, thats not the initial direction that this was taken in. This was taken in a story/design approach and the fact of the matter is that if I wanted to tell the story so that a single bomb criticially damaged or destroyed a Hecate destroyer, then I can. And the same thing goes for all of those V missions that you guys were so quick to point out the "problems" in.

And congrats on your posts!

Posted by Cepheid on 12-24-2001 05:29 PM:

I was not talking in terms of hitpoints either. it just doesn't make sense that such a powerful and expensive warship could be so vulnerable. Such a scenerio is simply implausible.

Posted by IceFire on 12-24-2001 05:51 PM:

And yet the Yamato, Bismark, Hood, and any number of other ships in any number of other naval battles and otherwise went the same way...they were expensive, they took a long time to build.

So I don't see how it wouldn't make any sense.

Posted by Zeronet on 12-24-2001 07:05 PM:

lol, one minute im reading posts under the old BWO art and click reply to post and its new, hehe. I must say its impressive! But the thing with WW2, those ships didnt have Fighterbays, that could launch fighters easily and effectively, so its a whole different ball game.

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Posted by IceFire on 12-24-2001 07:11 PM:

But thats apples to oranges...who cares if its a flight deck or a fighter bay....a pulse cannon or a bb gun. The overall concepts and point that I'm trying to make is that anything can happen.

You keep saying, well, in WW2 it was this way and in FS2 its another way. But its the SAME THING....its context is changed a bit, but its ultimately the same.

You CANNOT say that its rediculous that the big warships of FS2 are so vulnerable...or at least in terms of story, when infact, real world experience teaches us that the big warships of WW2 and so on experience the relative same level of vulernability.

You're the first to notice the change!

Posted by Mr Carrot on 12-24-2001 08:47 PM:

They are vulnerable, thats the point thats why they should have big fleets around to protect them and lots of fighters in a screen.

Posted by Cepheid on 12-24-2001 09:22 PM:

There is a far different size gap between a Zero and a carrier than there is between a Seraphim and a Hecate.

Posted by Kellan on 12-25-2001 12:28 AM:

Quick note Ice: the Bismarck was sunk by the HMS Dorsetshire's torpedoes at the end (and beginning) of the engagement. Recent research at the wreck of the Bismarck show that she was not scuttled, but water lapped over the compartmentalising bulkheads, tipping her over.

I di agree that capital ships are vulnerable, and they should maybe have more defences than in FS2 - but we now have more of a liberty that way. Everyone's computer is better, and we can afford to put more ships in the game.

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Posted by IceFire on 12-25-2001 05:17 AM:

This is true

We'll have a number of capital ships at the very least, in support of destroyers and definately working as a group.

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