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Yes true that Vorlons build gate in third space. Shadows didn't why? Perhaps they didn't know how or they didn't even botherd to try or they remember that it can work in both direction's (which Vorlons forget and paid that mistake with heavy loses).

And what comes Shadows weakness in teeps, Remember that shadow themselves didn't even bothered to get in their ship and used others as "Weapon components" in their ships. Do anyone really know does telepaths have any effect in Shadows? And I think that they created the Techno Mages to fight against teeps (That is revealed in B5: Summoning Light).

the sahdows didn't create the technomages - the technomages stole shadow tech - and yes telepaths they do have an effect - talia mananged to see them through there clock - it hurt her but she was only p5 i'm betting money that lyta could take on a shadow - she was made to be a super weapon afterall - althought they did desicde that later - i mean as you recall she was to tired to jam the second shadow ship when they went out to engage one and it hurt her at first - and the minbari telepaths of whom it had taken laods to jam bester could hold them for quite alot longer and then all of a sudden lyta can jam bester from all the people in the room all by herself and do telekentic tricks too =)

hmmm anyway the vorlons obviously knew there had to be a gate on the otherside - thats a mistake even humans wouldn't make - the theory in its contruction would have had to make that evident - they just either thought there would be a gate or they could detect it they just didn't know what was on the otherside - and i still believe that if vorlon forces hadn't fallen under the control of the aliens then the vorlons would have kicked there asses - they could have just parked a planet killer pointing at the gate and then firing into it destroying every ship in the gate and possible stuff on the other side if a planet happened to be in the way -

but back to the victory etc - while its a good ship i dont believe for a second that is is as superior to normal ships as the first ones were - if i was sitting in my warlock i would far rather engage a vicoty than a shadow battlecrab or vorlon deadnaught - although possibly maybe one of the smallest battlcrabs might be abit easier but they have major advantage over the victory in manuverabilty

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I'd say Victory is better than Sharlin. It has about 6-8 big beams on the nose. No reason to belive they are weaker than Sharlins main beam, they'r likely to be even stronger. It also has those big turrets with big beams/pulse weapon. And good fighter supression guns. It has better field of fire, 'cause the big turrets. Shadow battlecrabs are therefore not so big threat anymore. Yes? And the slicer beam would doudfully be able to "slice" Victory. The beam is not THAT dangerous.
It's also werey likely to have better armor.
The only REAL weakness is the bridge. But I'd still rather sit onboard battlecrab. Or Warlock (looks lot better than Victory )

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Creator of Movements in the Mist campaign

Oh ****! Those idiots did it.

I think that the Victory is the best that the younger races can currently produce with combined technologies (thus fulfilling its reason d'etre). However, I also think that Battlecrabs and Vorlon Cruisers are superior to the Victory (not to mention the other First Ones) - isn't the main cannon on the Victory basically a ripped of Vorlon main cannon (and under-powered at that). The Victory also doesn't have bio-armour, although later Victory class ships did, making its defensive properties weaker than both the Shadows and Vorlons.

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although later Victory class ships did

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That's something that sticks in my head too.. apparantly the excalibur was meant to have the same type of outer armour as the White Stars - the Minbari have the technology to grow this, as they have the technology to create new white stars.

The *whole idea* of the victory was a destroyer using the same tech as the white star - one of the main features of this was the armour. It makes sense that the victory would have this.

The excalibur doesn't have its armour because it was called away on emergency before it could be added.. Despite that, the Earth created hull to which the bio armour was to be added was still immensely strong.

That's what I remember anyway.

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But is there serious proof that new Victory class destroyers indeed HAVE bio-armor?

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I'll have to check 'A Call To Arms' again

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Victory was NOT supposed to have bioarmor. I just searched trought the Firstones forums 'cause remembered that we had this discussion before. And there it was, right there. Victory was NOT supposed to have bioarmor. It is pure fan speculation. Don't you think that it would have been mentioned in ACtA? Yes?

Go and see for yoursef:
http://216.15.145.59/modsforums/Forum10/HTML/000312.html
(Tip: Go to the quite bottom of the last page)

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FREDer for [url=http://www.hot.ee/honorofomega/index.htm]Honour of Omega[/url]
Creator of Movements in the Mist campaign

Oh ****! Those idiots did it.

Hmm...
Actually I'm not so sure if Minbari could build new Whitestars after Vorlons left. Perhaps they still don't yet know how to build bio-armors in Crusade timeline, somewhere between Crusade and Sleeping in Light they learn this though, because Bluestars seems to have bio-armor.

When mass-production of Victory class destroyers finally begins, then they may know how to build bio-armors and then Victory class destroyer would also receive other upgrades as well. Like more powerful standard weaponry and shorter or non-existant system powerup after using the main gun.

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Do you people think the ISA would also build a new model of Whitestar, a new class?

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Not really, Whitestar is pretty perfect in it current design.
Perhaps when they are able to build a ship that is better than WS, then they will but not before.

But of course ISA may improve Whitestars when new technology comes available. Like better sensors, navigation and so on. Perhaps even updated power source to provide more energy for weapons resulting more powerful weaponry.

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This is warlock:

All right we all agree that Shadow battle crap and Vorlon dreadnough is best of best.
Every ship has their weakness and mainly it is the flanks.

Victory's weapons:
4 main cannons in front and tail, 3 as flank cannons up and below and Vorlon main cannon. Crystalite armor which reflects 80% of damage. Vorlon main cannon drains all energy for a minute and makes its use almost useless.

Vorlon dreadnought:
1 heavy main cannon and some possible smaller weapons. Get in behind or in flanks and you win a match. Shields.

Sharli:
over 20 beam cannons in front and aft. Vulnerable in flanks. Same crystalite armor than victory class haves.

Shadow battle crap:
1 beam cannon with fast fire rate and causes heavy damage. Organic armor which repairs it self and fast. Vulnerable against fighters and faster ships (especially vorlon fighters)

Warlock:
2 heavy beam cannons and 2 missile launchers and some smaller weapons. Vulnerable in flanks and behind.

Vorlon armory and weaponary is superiorer than shadow, but shadows are faster and they may jump in with a sec. notice and whipeout everything. In episode Z'Ha'dum they could destroy B5 before they could even react in attack.

Somehow I don't like the idea of younger races ships that are match to firstones vessels .
So , stay away from me with your new "my ship kicks azz" designs. Makes me vomit.

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[i]

Shadow battle crap
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I dont have a ship that kicks azz but a weapon, the fission beam, causes the target ships hull to undergo fission on a sub-atomic level, the heavier the armour the more damage it causes. Or an antimatter beam.

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for gods sake man the sharlin doesn't have the cyrstaline armour - just look at the ships they dont look similar at all - the only other ship that has a chance of having it is the warlock destroyer and you might want to look at its small weapons as you put it - they are heavy plasma cannons and they will ripa ship to peices in seconds

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quote:

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Originally posted by KillMeNow
for gods sake man the sharlin doesn't have the cyrstaline armour - just look at the ships they dont look similar at all - the only other ship that has a chance of having it is the warlock destroyer and you might want to look at its small weapons as you put it - they are heavy plasma cannons and they will ripa ship to peices in seconds

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Sharlin does have crystalline armor, Warlock have plasteel armor. Victory mixes them.

It was mentioned in some of the B5 books that Warlock have plasteel armor and crystalline armor is more likely Minbari tech as they have so much crystal elements in their homeworld.

I don't know why another book would say that Warlocks have crystalline armor and another plasteel... so dunno...

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