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-- Omega-X, Battlecrab (https://volitionwatch.game-warden.com/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=4505)

yeah but the vorlons aren't out to kill the shadows jsut to stop them sprading there message to the younger races - and - the fighters do destroy it it begins to crumple and thats a shadow ship breaking upand remember they can detect shadow jump points tehy are just not as vissually stunning but they read almost identicle to a njormal jump point according to leniier

the vorlons would kick the shadows asses if it come down to it - they rule

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well I've got that episode on tape, sure doesn't look like it's crumbling to me. I see it flip over on it's back and look like it's spines are moving, but that's 'cause they sorta bend down. If it's on it's back the spines would appear to bend the other way. Sorry, just can't agree.
Sure the Vorlons didn't want to kill the Shadows, but if they are so much more powerful they could've blockaded Z'ha'dum, bottled the Shadows up there, and never let the Shadows stretch forth their hands (claws?) again. Best I can say is it's like the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the US being the Vorlons and the USSR being the Shadows. US technologically more advanced but the Soviets could've destroyed us and the rest of the world as easily as we could've destroyed them. I still say, though, that the Shadows are superior.
Ok, you take the role of the Vorlon, I'll take the role of the Shadow. We can go around corrupting others to our points of view, get them to fight amongst themselves about it, and see who wins. Sound familair? LOL


On a side note...where did you learn how to compose sentences and type? No offense but your grammer is terrible. Makes reading your posts somewhat difficult. Maybe it's cause you're from Scotland. Nothing wrong with that of course, my ancestors were Celts.

quote:

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Originally posted by ivanenski
No offense but your grammer is terrible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ivanenski
On a side note...where did you learn how to compose sentences and type? No offense but your grammer is terrible. Makes reading your posts somewhat difficult. Maybe it's cause you're from Scotland. Nothing wrong with that of course, my ancestors were Celts.

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Talking about the overall strength of the Vorlon and Shadow fleets, don't forget that the Shadows had to rebuild their fleet virtually from scratch, with no obvious base and in secret as opposed to the Vorlon fleet. Also, it is only known that the Vorlons (and their allies) only won the last great war a thousand years before. For all we know, the Shadows won the war before that.

I think the main problem in ascertaining how tough a Vorlon cruiser/dreadnought and a Shadow Battlecrab are in relation to one another is in determining what actually destroyed the Battlecrab in that much mentioned battle in this post. Was it simply a transport? A Destroyer? Or a larger, unseen ship?

It would be helpful if someone could post a media clip of the battle to help people to try to determine this for themselves

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When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

If the shadows won the war before the last great war, why are the vorlons then still alive and kicking? (until they left of course)

The aim of these wars never was to annihilate the opposition, just to prove to everyone else who was victorious and therefore right.

Remember, the Shasdows and Vorlons started out in relative peace when they started to oversee the development of the younger races. Then when their philosophy differences became more and more apparent they eventually resorted to the childish behaviour of trying to prove that they are correct by having the most people agree with them.

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yeah, I think you're right about that, thanks.

ok i hereby apoligise for my bad grammar and typing. I just prefer to type quickly. I was never taught to type, I just hit the keys as fast as i can and occasionally, ok abit more than occasionally I hit the wrong one or in the wrong order. It surprises me that you cant work it out though, most people read what i write without any trouble at all.

now back onto the shadows and vorlons - i just have to point out vorlon planet killer????????? did you spot a bigger weapon in b5 cause i didn't. and jsut because delen said the shadows were the oldest race from what lorien said they found the shadows and vorlons about the same time and they didn't fight the shadows they taught them. as somone pointed out the wars began after most fo the first one had gone beyond the rim i would also say that the first shadow war was probally the one that happened a thousand years ago - since the vorlons supposedly got the minbari to help them spread there message - the shadows were ahving none of this and descided to fight about it since saya thousand years before the 1000 year ago war i doubt the minbari would have been technilogical enough to tip the balance in favour of the vorlons and lets face it the shadows never had to deal with 3rd space - just in well too cause with there problems with telepaths they would have lost big time

nope the vorlons are clearly superior technilogically - i see no evidence at all they are that great to be honest there planet killer is just nukes we can make those ok so they buried down abit but the planet was fine and happy after it was used - in a call to arms they landed on a planet htat had had a visit from one - there ships have tought armour but from the evidence seen its not as good as vorlon armour or if it is that makes vorlon weaponary thousands of times more powerful

the shadows are always said to claok themselfs - they dont it just ahppens they jump with an invisable point whoooo hoooo they point is still detected on sensors and the ship is targetable even by narn ships hell the minbari can do better than that. i would also point out that evidence suggests that a minbari warcrusier or sharlin has greater firepower than a shadow vessel if not in beam strength then certainly in the amount of weapons and the wepons are strong enough to stop a shadow vessel and then its just afew secs before its gone i certainly wouldn't want to put money either way in sharlin vs battlecrab but vorlon dreadnaught vz sharlin the vorlons are going to destroy that sharlin before the sharlin as even managed to put a carbon scoring on the vorlon hull

the vorlons whip the shadows asses and had the war not ended when it did i think its clear teh vorlons would have wiped the shadows out they seemed to have desiced they were now a nuasence and they were goign to deal with it

now i'm not saying the vorlons are much nicer than the shadows - i personally think the vorlons started teh conflict with the shadows - as with the 3rd space film we leanr they pretty much thought of themselves as gods - i dont see the shadows with such massive egos but still vorlon tech is more powerful i will point it out again a vorlon transport took out a battlecrab - basically thats like a ae shuttle taking out a sharlin or a minbari flyer taking out a warlock for it to happen there needs to be a huge tech gap between the two

"The Vorlons ARE!!!!" Mr Sebastian

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WOW, there were a lot of comments made in that last post!

I would like to counter some of them with my opinions

i) I agree that the Vorlons have the biggest gun of any of the races seen in the show. However (pure speculation time) it may be possible that the Shadows decided not to put all of their eggs in one basket like the Vorlons in having one huge ship as a planet killer, instead having a network of linked nodes. The downside of this is that you lose a lot of power - but hey, they can still destroy a planet in short order

ii) The Vorlons do appear superior technology but they also suffer in several aspects from their superiority. This comes from them initially trying to hide their technology gap from the other races with encounter suits and using traditional jump points. The Shadows forego this pretence and use their technology to shift into a different band of vision and to use more efficient jump technology.

iii) Nobody has ever said that Shadow phasing into/out of hyperspace is undetectable, but it is faster, more energy efficient (a smaller rift than a whole jump point) and can't be disrupted as easily.

iv) Shadow beam strength must be orders of magnitude greater than Minbari beams, let alone Narn/EA. I say this because of examples when Shadow vessels have sliced other ships in half and decimated colonies in seconds. To the best of my knowledge it took many minutes if not hours for a Drazi/Narn fleet to partially destroy the Centauri capital in 'The Fall of Centauri Prime' - not killing more than a fraction of the population.

v) Vorlon weaponry is presumably at least equally powerful as seen by the one or two combats Vorlon Dreadnoughts are involved in.

vi) True, Sharlins can match up to Battlecrabs but only with the help of telepaths - Shadows' true weakness. This is only really a weakness because the Shadows don't want to risk themselves on ships, unlike Vorlons - perhaps a strategy fitting for a multi-millenia campaign with two races that hardly reproduce anymore.

vi) Neither the Shadows nor the Vorlons would ever destroy the other as there would be nobody left to gloat over. Seriously, the purpose of the war is to win and be right, not to annihilate the enemy.

vii) Who said anything about the Minbari (or any other current race for that matter) being involved in a military fashion in wars before the last great war (the term itself implying previous great wars)? Previous wars could have involved other races that later evolved to a First One level and/or races that were still in their first age.

viii) I only think that the Vorlons' egos were inflated because they won the last war. They both seem as bad as each other, and appearing to be calm and reasonable (in the form of Justin) can be an effective propaganda weapon in it's own right.

ix) I still maintain that it was a destroyer and not a transport that destroyed the Battlecrab (however it could be neither, it was an unseen ship doing the major damage).

Please feel free to disagree with any of my opinions, but that is simply how I feel

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Thanks a lot KMN and Triggy... now I have an headache...


I have my own speculations about Vorlon Dreadnough and Shadow Battlecrab.

Comparing the two ships:

Dreadnought:
+Firepower
+Armor
-Sluggish
-Quite slow

Battlecrab:
+Fast
+Maneuverable
+Phasing (can suddenly emerge from anywhere)
-Telepath weakness

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The scene where we saw battlecrab firing on Vorlon Dreadnought, I don't think the battlecrab was firing at full power, or it was one of the smallest crabs (there is at least three different sizes). Anyways, if a battlecrab can annihilate entire colonies, then it should have enough firepower to destroy a Dreadnought.

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well we know the minbari were involved in the previous war but i think that was the first one since it was us they were fighting over - and when sheridan went to zahadum they said that the vorlons broke the agreement by getting alles and directly telling them the shadows were bad guys so the shadows did somethign about it - thats teh way i see it - i think there has only been the two wars prvious to that there wouldn't b any younger races capable of fighting in there little organised wars

i also maintain that was a vorlon transport cause it was ideticle in every respect.

i dont deny shadow weaposn are powerful but i think the evidence suggests vorlon weapons are more powerful and also that minbari weapons are powerful enough to stop battlecrabs - that ship was moving then a sharlin opened up on it and it stoped dead and just got a pumeling - i admit though a shadow ship could cut open a sharlin pretty fast but i'm doubtful if they could open up the liked of the warlock or voctory class with that refractive armour quite so fast and the reason i say warlock is i think ea ships have tougher hulls than minbari ones star furys cause dmaage to an omega they can punture right through the wings of a sharlin and sinclair thought he could take out or serious damanage a sharlin by ramming it but thats off the subject i agree that the shadows might have tought there planet killer was more likely to suceed that the vorlon type but on the other hand the earth alliance plus the 2 victory class ships took one out so i'm betting a afew vorlon dread naughts could to the job too and i know where i'd put my money for a vpk vs a spk before it was around the vpk it woud be vapour =) but anyway shadows are tought vorlon are tough(er) =)

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oh first attempt so dont worry i already have a better lightning just haven't aranged it for the vorlon ship yet

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Wow..... I want that one. That's really gonna kick ass.

The trouble with the Transport vs. Destroyer debate is that the only major difference is the size of the two vessels (the Transport is ~30m long) and the Destroyer is over 300m long. A minor difference is that I don't think that the Destroyer can open it's "wings" at the back of the ship. BTW, it is pretty certain that the Transport is armed but it is a question of to what degree?

My point really is that if a Transport is so heavily armed then why aren't Vorlon fighters as they are a comparable size?

I really do need to take another look at the episode where that Battlecrab is destroyed by the Vorlons

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remember - though that there was never made any mnetion ofa destroyer or cruiser what ever you are calling it anything said about it isn't cannon what is cannon is that ship the transport it was the same model so for me its the same ship as for the fighters they are alot smaller and the transports can open there wings - they come out of hyperspace with them closed open them up traveltowards b5 close them aain for docking - remember when kosh 2 was killed they merged with the ship and it had the fins open - they also close them for battle

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I always thought that the transport and the destroyer was the same ship.... That's what I read on all the tech sites I've seen. They never mention a destroyer.

However, I admit that there are a lot of contradictions about this in the show.

Could someone enlighten me about this please ...

specualation about a destroyer exists because alot of people believe a vorlon transport can whip a shadow battle crabs ass - so going by the show there is no such thing the vorlons have fighter - transport - dreadnaught - planet killer all of them capable of jumping by themselves and all with huge firepower a vorlon fighter out classes ever younger race ships except perhaps the warlock and sharlin but if i sw one and i was in a omega i would run

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That would be wise....