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Ok Fuzzy. I do know what I'm talking abput because by drafts I am referring to the original accounts or versions of the story. The original reference to the Blackstar was that Sheridan co of the Agamamenon mined the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter after being ambushed and it destroyed the Blackstar and two supporting cruisers that accompanied it, this was changed in the movie "In the Beginning". As was the first contact of Dukhat and the Prometheus, originally there were two Sharlins present, the Grey Council ship crippled and a second support Sharlin completely destroyed, again this was changed for the movie. These are the raw versions of the stories told as background information by the creators of B5 before anything was written down, but I still consider these official since it was done by them. The fact they were changed for the movie doesn't mean they don't exist. There is very little actual facts about the Minbari/EA War apart from the movie, the series barely touched Sinclair's encounter on the Line, Delenn's guilt about ordering the war, but actual hard facts about victories and missions are not found. Within several places you can find some information though, this is where I happened upon the ratio per loss of the war which is a hell of more realistic account than humanity lost every battle for 3 years straight. First it's ompossible. You really think there were a gazillion humans in the war, all lost in daily fights of hundreds or thousands per day or weeks for 3 years? The EA isn't even half of the size of the Minbari Federation. With the kind of losses generally believed, the Minbari should have destroyed Earth in 3 months not 3 years. Next if the Hyperions and Novas could damage the Grey Council Sharlin, they could do it to any Sharlin. Now I know what's coming, stealth tech bologny yeah yeah they had it, so what they had it during first contact and the Prometheus still targeted them. And please no arguments it's clear, the XO mentions the trouble they are having locking on to them so just admit the damn Minbari are not invincible. A lot of information could be found in the now defunct Voltayre's Xenopedia webpage, this was around when season 3 was still airing for the first time, they received their information via interviews with members of B5 crew and even its creator JMS like the B5tech website, unfortunately this site fell a few years later. So trust me I do know what the hell I'm talking about.

The Sha'Dum is the Minbari's Battleship, I have only found 1 picture of it so far and it is mean.

Btw, the Sharlin rammed by the Nova was completely destroyed. You can clearly see the "fish head" break into a fireball after the Nova rams it. Just because the mod had the Cruiser in tippy top condition after the ram does not make it so. And also the ramming wasn't even in the Line. It happened before while Londo explained how the humans (which couldn't destrpy a single Minbari ship) held them back for 2 years after the first year of war. Please give me a break on this even Star Trek is more realistic.

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One last stand to hold the line against the night...EA President

You're right Ghost Rider about the ramming - the Sharlin is destroyed (in the "two year" montage):

Sheridan was the only one to score a *victory* against a Minbari war cruiser. Meaning he survived. Ramming one, and dying in the process, ain't a victory...at best it's a draw. - JMS

Also this clarifies that EA had no other victories against Minbari cruisers other than escaping alive or annihilating one another. This does not however preclude the possibility of the EA having victories over Minbari installations or over Minbari fighter squadrons. It does preclude however other drafted engagements that were later dropped (i.e. Not canon - in the extreme).

The main reason that no Sharlins/Tinashis were destroyed through conventional combat was not their apparent invulnerability to EA weapons, nor due to Minbari stealth technology. It was most likely due to good intelligence in combination with never having Minbari battlegroups outgunned in any given battle.

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When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

Sorry. I overeacted. Your right Ghost Rider. I recall alot of what your saying now.

We'll just accept these as inconsitencies. B5 had quite a few after all, Especially early on in the series, though it's better than alot of the competition.

Please post the picture of the Sha'Dum. I have never heard of it.

sheridan states in the show that his blowing up the black star was the only real victory they had in the war - and he did state at the same time the he took our 2 other heavy crusiers before they could flee but the sharlin is a powerful ship and earth vessesla can only lock on while its in visual range - after that its in trouble

the sharlin can take out just about anything - hell it stopped afew shadow battlecrabs cold even tehy could withstand its firepower for long - very powerful as is the warlock - with blue beams or not - now the drahk they are to much trouble one of there curusier was brought down by an omega it did destroy the omega but the omega destroyed it too so i'd say its only slightly more powerful than an omega certainly no match for a warlock or sharlin or an omega x

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No need to apologize Fuzzy we're all friends here.

I agree with all of you the Sharlin can take out anything and I admit that the stories I placed were the originial non-official versions, hell can you imagine Omega Destroyers in the Minbari War. But these did come from the makers so I consider them semi-canon.

Yes KillMeNow, Sheridan states it was the only "real" victory against the Minbari but what does that mean? It means that there were other situations which might be considered partial victories or as I read that when the EA won a battle they lost so many ships doing it that it isn't considered a victory. Put it in these terms ok, you've got 6 Sharlins facing 20 EA Caps of your choice; Hyperion and Novas I suppose , though since AoG is also considered canon maybe Orpheus, Avengers, Arterions and Sagittarius may be there too. So 6 vs 20, as I read in EA victories humanity lost 3 ships for every 1 Minbari ship destroyed. Meaning that to kill the 6 Sharlins 18 of the 20 EA Caps had to die, so I ask even though the EA defeated the Minbari, would you consider this a victory? If every "EA victory" is based on this common denominator then we can determine that the EA was losing massive numbers of ships to defeat less than half of their forces in any engagement. So no matter how many times you say the "EA won the fight" they lost double the number of ships the Minbari did so it isn't considered a "real" victory. But remember that Earth held the Minbari back for 3 years, if Earth did lose every fight, every time the Minbari would have taken Earth down in months not years. But I accept that the Minbari did have plenty more victories over the EA, but I like to put out the word that though we sucked against the Minbari we sucked golden. Can you imagine any other race holding the Minbari back 3 years; the Centauri, Narns, the League, they would have been pasted immediately so it makes sense EA survived that long becuase it actually put up a fight. But Minbari and EA buddies now and forever, hell I can't wait until the Dra'kh War is made so I can see the Excalibur, Warlocks and Sharlins helping us poor canon fodder waste those evil bastards and maybe the Centauri. Love to see a Warlock engage an Octurion.

Fuzzy, I have the picture of the Sha'Dum. But I have no html site to put it online. If one of the moderators agrees, I'll send it to them and they can put it on the board for you to see, who knows they may like it and make the ship, though I'll be very glad never to have faced it in the Minbari War (can you say overkill?). If you liked the Sharlin, you'll love the Sha'Dum, I feel sorry for the bastard that even looks at it funny.

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One last stand to hold the line against the night...EA President

I agree Ghost Rider with everything in your last post. The EA could not fight a three year war and not win any engagements but with the resources of the entire EA directed to the war effort as opposed to just the military of the Minbari some serious attrition could be inflicted on both sides.

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When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

In regards to Warlock beams, Fuzzy modems comments have some merit.

A more orange approach to them is definately a good idea. They still maintain the color but have a bit of distinguishing features. Size will be bigger. Refire rate will be slower than that of a Sharlin beam weapon.

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Volition Watch Project Manager
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oh boy, just as usual the topic is no longer what it originally was. How did we go from having the Bintak in the mod to talking about how many Minbari ships were killed by EA ones?? Well, IMHO, I think that the EA played havoc with the Minbari at times, especially behind the lines. Even if the EA lost every single battle there is no way they could have held off the Minbari for 3 years. My only guess is that EA commandos caused a lot of problems in the rear areas of the Minbari. Seems kinda logical, once the Minbari conquer a EA system and wipe out all the EA forces within that system, they move on. After the main Minbari fleet leaves EA commandos are covertly smuggled into that conquered system to disrupt Minbari lines of communication and supply. A small group of well equipped and highly trained elite soldiers can play havoc on anyone behind the lines, even though that enemy possesses a better combat fleet. Well, that's my opinion. This probably is not the only reason why the war lasted 3 years, the EA fought the Minbari for "every inch of space." Fighting that stubbornly will slow down even the most advanced of enemies, as they have to regroup and repair themselves constantly even though they win every battle. "In the Beginning" shows that the Minbari suffered heavy damage to their ships during the war, just look at the scene in hyperspace just prior to the line. The Minbari fleet was very beat up, most ships had pieces, chunks, and large scortch marks from the near constant fighting over the past years. And saying that the Black Star and that rammed Sharlin were the only ones destroyed is kinda unrealistic. During 3 years of war you're gonna lose more than just 2 ships despite your technological edge, either through combat, wear and tear, or accidents. Look at the latter half of World War 2, the US Navy was far better than the Japanese one and we never lost a battle after Guadalcanal, but still we lost a lot of ships. So anyways, that's my two cents. Getting back to the original topic, let's see the Bintak!!

Oh im willing to bet that the Minbari did loose some ships along the way. Not specifically credited to an EA attack, but a combination of those aformationed wear and tear, constant battle, and so on.

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Volition Watch Project Manager
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I have always attributed inconsistencies in the story of In The
Beginning with what we have been told before to the fact it is
Londo's story. He is old, drunk and didn’t actually see most of
what he is talking about so he, maybe not deliberately, makes up
bits he isn’t sure of. Well that's my take on it and for me it works.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phantom
I have always attributed inconsistencies in the story of In The
Beginning with what we have been told before to the fact it is
Londo's story. He is old, drunk and didn’t actually see most of
what he is talking about so he, maybe not deliberately, makes up
bits he isn’t sure of. Well that's my take on it and for me it works.

---

londo also said that many minbari died in the war but that the human race was brough to the edge of extinction or soemthing to that effect - i think that it is unlikely that ea won any pitched battles but they no doubt must have destroyed minbari ships along the way and maybe retreated before the entire fleet had been wiped out. but on the other hand why did they make sucha big deal over teh destruction of teh balck star unless of cource it was the only minbari vessel to have been destroyed - although i'm not sure on the timing? was that maybe at the begining of the war? hmmmm anyway i'm sure we got afew of there aharlins and damaged even more - and i'm quite sure by the time of crusade the earth aliiance could hold off the minbari for a hell of alot longer than 3 years and if they have any omega x's left lets go whip the minbari asses - nothing like shadow armours a powerful beam cannons to get the job done - ohhhhhhh and an warlock x hehehe now that would be fun - and there is the hybrid too but i not sure if they have much control over that one - otherwise why did it destroy the damn cant remember its name - on thetip of my tounge anyway you know the one gideons ship

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The timeline (according to the novelisation) is that for the first few weeks outlying supply bases and stations were destroyed. Then for a couple of months the Minbari employed hit and run tactics, picking off occasional ships and battle groups - not the most decisive thing to do but very efficient. The outlying colonies were also obliterated but it was mainly military installations that were destroyed first, leaving the soft underbelly of the colonies to be easily destroyed later.

This is roughly when the Drala Fi (AKA Black Star) was destroyed and in the process at least four and possibly five of the six war ships in the Lexington's convoy were destroyed. Only after this battle, their efforts renewed due to this defeat did the Minbari start to attack the more inlying colonies. This process took even longer as they had to be more careful deep in EA territory. Bear in mind that the Minbari didn't want to lose a single man, let alone entire ships! From what I can make out, destroying roughly 100 installations/colonies is what took three years, not because the Minbari were losing, but because they were being systematic.

The Black Star was the first Minbari ship (according to the film and book, I can't comment on original scripts) to be destroyed in the war. Later other Minbari ships were definitely destroyed but no victories were won by the EA after this.

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

I think they said it was their flagship.

According to EA it was some form of "ace cruiser".

According to the Minbari it was their flagship - an improved Sharlin (a Shargoti according to AoG).

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When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

nope i would disagree - i think its higly improbable the ea wouldn't have had a single victory - might have been loosing but i'll bet they set some expeidtions into minbari terrirory with loads of ships and whipe they weren't protected jumped in with loads of ships and flatted afew bases or taken out afew ships but at a bad lose ratio - remember the earth alliance according to most sources had vastly greater number of ships and larger territory too - so me thinks that they must have won afew just by the skin of there teeth - like someone else siad earlier - they won but at sucha heavy loss it couldn't be called a victory - and sheridans it was the only REAL victory during the war - this makes methink missions like the destruction of base x was accomplished but no ships surved to escape etc or suicide missions - we repleatly saw novas and starfurys ramming into sharlins - and they did pretty impressive damage when they rammed at full speed - just a quick note here not those that an omegas armour can take being hit by starfury and nails far better than a sharlin can - they clearly have quite weak armour and rely mostly on stealth and overwhelming firepower

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quote:

---

Originally posted by KillMeNow
- just a quick note here not those that an omegas armour can take being hit by starfury and nails far better than a sharlin can - they clearly have quite weak armour and rely mostly on stealth and overwhelming firepower [/B]

---

Military and supply bases would have been attacked by the EA and they may have won these confrontations commando style (i.e. They faced few opposition ships) but winning actual battles seems unlikely. A sharlin in a conventional combat can easily take out half a dozen EA ships if they are attacking.

As I said, a lot of the Minbari victories were hit and run and they didn't allow the Earth vessels to get into a straight fight where undoubtedly the EA vessels would have had a large advantage over other scenarios.

__________________
When the final reckoning comes only the damned will be there to see it.

Here you go boys.

This from EA history from B5tech.com about the EA Minbari War.

"Victories were far a few between, the Alliance loosing an average of five ships for every Minbari ship destroyed. Even those battles which were won by the Alliance were not true victories, as the cost in ships and manpower always averaged a 3 to 1 loss in the Minbari's favor... and this was just to drive the Minbari attackers off.

The Earth Alliance only achieved one true victory during the course of the war, when Lieutenant Commander John Sheridan, who had been thrust into command of the Earth Alliance Heavy Cruiser Lexington following the death of his captain, laid a trap for an attacking Minbari warship".

As you can see the EA did win battle they just lost too many ships doing it to be considered a victory. Hope this helps.

__________________
One last stand to hold the line against the night...EA President

i agree that earth vessesl would do alot better when they insiagated the attack since they would be prepared and if they had enough numerical superiority they should be able to severel damage or destroy minbar vessesl before tehy even got the gunports open but only if they jump within there weapon range and are prepared this i dont imagine happened very offen - as for the sharlin having the vorlon bio armour systems - nada no chance - it was a new thing to the white star rmember - it was designed with teh help of the vorlons - think about it - one hit from ea heavy plasma from the begining ot the ea/minbari war hit a sharlin hard enough to have bulkhead ruptuing and beams fallinga ll over the place in it and to kill there leader dukat so nope i'd say they jsut designed there vessesl to be fast with enough firepower that when prepared thney wont ever take many hits - minor design flaw in my opinion - i got to admit i'm not sure which ship i would most like to be in when combat brke out - probally a omega or warlock would be pretty safe both have excelent armour and good weapons - minbari sharlin better weapons on average but weak hull

of cource if i could be in anything a vorlon planet killer would be a pretty safe place =) or the great machine in epsilon 3 that has 5 miles of rock for armour damn effective =) took ages for evena shadow vessel to cut its friend out of mars and that was half dg up already but ships vorlon vpk or evena dreadnaught since they go in to protect the vpk from things to small for it to shoot

hmmm anyway i digress - sharlin is good but not unstopable - give me a warlock and i'll take one down =)

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