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Posted by ShadowWolf_IH on 08-30-2002 04:27 AM:

I didn't say they were terrestrial. But that doesn't mean that they don't need resources.....unless we find a bunch of space factories somewhere. There is just too much we don't know about them yet.

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Posted by JamieK on 08-30-2002 05:17 AM:

What makes you think that they started it during the Great War?

The GTI could have known about the Portal and the Shivan threat even before the T-V War began.

The GTI probably found ruins on one of the Ancients' Colonies and found technical readouts of the Subspace Portal in Gamma Draconis and found out about an extremely advanced civilization that they called 'The Cosmic Destroyers' and the GTI thought of the Technologies that they could get from the Shivans.

Because they were more interested in getting new advanced technology that they weren't thinking about what they were letting in when they activated the portal and in came 'death' itself.

Well, anyway, i am going insane for the BWO demo.

Posted by JamieK on 08-30-2002 05:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
I didn't say they were terrestrial. But that doesn't mean that they don't need resources.....unless we find a bunch of space factories somewhere. There is just too much we don't know about them yet.

That is why Volition should make FreeSpace 3.

Interplay should allow them to.

Posted by Pren on 08-30-2002 10:41 AM:

quote:
Because they were more interested in getting new advanced technology that they weren't thinking about what they were letting in when they activated the portal and in came 'death' itself.

heehee, nice sounds like an NID opperation from stargate

I would have to agree with shadow wolf on this one, any empire or large force ie the Shivans, would need an exponential amount of resources there fore there main objectives would be to gather materials. Maybe this is the reason they blow up stars, if the GTVA could do good things with nebular gas (the promethius cannon for instance) imagine how far the shivans could push it!

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Posted by JamieK on 08-30-2002 04:54 PM:

well, what makes you think they need supplies?

What if their ships have power cores that continusly recharge each system?

What if they have a Power Core that absorbs subspace and converts it into energy?

You lot did say they have advanced subspace technology.

Posted by AAPM on 08-31-2002 10:27 PM:

Again, the only problem with the theory of the Shivans being an imperial race in terms that we define it is that after the Ancients had been destroyed, the Shivans could've set up shop any time in the past 7,000 years or so and remain without opposition from either the Terran and Vasudan peoples. Coupled with the fact that the most powerful race (Ancients) that inhabited this little sector of space, I doubt there was anyone else that could take on the Shivans.

It could simply be that the Shivans collect energy or resources through a vastly different means then we do, though I'd need some proof on that one.

As for why I think somebody (not necessarily GTI) activated the Knossos around the end of the T-V war? Well, maybe this is a silly observation on my part, but it didn't seem like the Shivans took their sweet time coming through the portal when it was activated in FS2. Of course, then again, I don't recall when it had been activated. I always assumed GTVA discovered it after Bosch opened it.

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Posted by karajorma on 08-31-2002 11:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by AAPM
As for why I think somebody (not necessarily GTI) activated the Knossos around the end of the T-V war? Well, maybe this is a silly observation on my part, but it didn't seem like the Shivans took their sweet time coming through the portal when it was activated in FS2. Of course, then again, I don't recall when it had been activated. I always assumed GTVA discovered it after Bosch opened it.

If someone opened up your back door and walked into your house you`d probably notice it pretty quickly. When the portal was activated the NTC Trinity was pulled into the nebula where the shivans noticed it pretty quickly.
I still don`t buy the theory that the shivans entered via GD during the first war. They would have had to pass though some of the GTVA's most heavily populated systems to reach Ross 128. If they did that just so as to not draw attention to themselves why didn`t they reopen the portal when the lucifer was destroyed and they started losing?
While I`m all for the possibility that the GTI messed up first contact with the shivans and then hushed it up I will never believe that they did that in GD or the nebula.

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Posted by JamieK on 09-01-2002 07:37 AM:

Well,

What makes you think that the Shivans can't make a subspace Jump from Gamma Draconis all the way to Ross 128?

They are extremely advanced in Subspace Technlogy, what makes you think their subspace drives can't make big jumps?

What if they went through a different Jump Node?

i found a node map, which could be totally wrong.

I think they jumped from N362 System to Laramis System and then to Ross 128.

As i recall from FreeSpace 1, the Frail Gun was brought back by Scientists from a newly discovered System called: Laramis.

So, Before the Attack on Ross 128, the Terrans didn't know about Laramis, so that is probably where the Shivans launched their attack against Ross from.

Sounds dumb, but thats could be how they did it.

Posted by karajorma on 09-01-2002 10:38 AM:

You still didn`t tell me why the shivans didn`t reopen the portal when they started losing?

Posted by AAPM on 09-01-2002 07:53 PM:

As I stated before in an earlier post, there was the possibility that GTI, in an attempt to cover their mess in Gamma Draconis, sent the GTD Hades and perhaps a few other forces to neutralize Shivan forces holding the portal. As in during Silent Threat, much of the Shivan fleet was held up at Delta Serpentis, which then became isolated as the Terran and Vasudan forces began to pick away at the main armada.

But also consider this, the Shivans just lost their most powerful command ship and are systematically being hunted down and destroyed. They attempt to make a run to Gamma Draconis, suffering losses as they fly towards their destination. Meanwhile, GTI sends the Hades to ambush the Shivans that somehow survive the Terran-Vasudan retaliatory onslaught. The Shivans finally make it to where the Knossos is only to see the Terran version of the Lucifer sitting pretty, ready to send them all straight to hell.

Due to the fact that the first Shivan incursion was orchestrated by more primitive variants of Shivan vessels (as in no flak guns, anti-fighter beam weapons, and no anti-capship beam turrets, barring the Lucifer of course), a few Cains and Liliths (and maybe a Demon or two) aren't going to be able to contend with the Hades and whatever support ships and Bomber wings GTI decides to send along.

Of course, this entire theory depends upon the amount of Shivan craft accounted for, plus the operational status of the GTD Hades.

As for the GTA or PVN not noticing Shivan forces going through their space? In the beginning of Freespace1, you can't target Shivan craft or get a partial radar signal except at extremely close range. Besides, space is vast. I doubt anyone could get a clear visual confirmation, and even if they did, they wouldn't be around to tell GTA or PVN command about it.

Ya know, I was just wondering why Volition didn't include the Centaur Reload Ship from FS1, the Athena, Apollo, Anubis, Shaitan, Scorpion, or Valkyrie in FS2. They included the Hades and Lucifer for some reason (at least in the mission editor), but why not the others?

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Posted by Fry Day on 09-01-2002 09:56 PM:

They didn't include those ships because of code limitations (Table size too large) or something like that. And because there were enough ships already. The Anubis sucks anyway

About Shivan reqource collection - It's very probable that it's based on the same stuff as human resource collection is, since there are Shivan gas miners.

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Posted by karajorma on 09-02-2002 12:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by AAPM
As for the GTA or PVN not noticing Shivan forces going through their space? In the beginning of Freespace1, you can't target Shivan craft or get a partial radar signal except at extremely close range. Besides, space is vast. I doubt anyone could get a clear visual confirmation, and even if they did, they wouldn't be around to tell GTA or PVN command about it.

And no one noticed that ships were going missing without even a mayday?
As for not spotting the ships the lucifer is nearly three miles long. If anyone was near any of the nodes they'd see it. Radar or no radar. Also we don`t know if the stealth systems were only fitted to fighters and bombers since we don`t see a shivan cap until AFTER the GTA figures out how to lock onto shivan ships.

The second (bigger) hole in your theory is that the shivans weren`t defeated when the Hades was destroyed. They still had enough ships to get back to Gamma Draconis (especially if you are saying that there is a direct link between it and Ross 128 or another system near there)
I`m not sure of this but I think I also remember that the Hades had only just gone operational when it was defeated. So there wasn`t any time for it to nip out to Gamma Draconis and back.
The Hades was built so that the GTI could take over the GTA. Why would they risk it in a secret mission to Gamma Draconis? Why not just tip off the GTA that they were heading there and let the GTA lose ships killiung shivans thus making them an easier target?
How did the hades get to Gamma Draconis to attack the shivans in the first place? Everything I said about the shivans going through populated systems to get to Gamma Draconis also holds true for the Hades. Worse unlike at the start of the war by the time of Silent Threat the GTA would be guarding the nodes to prevent the shivans rallying for a counterstrike. The Hades would have to get past guarded nodes without being spotted and unlike the shivan ships the Hades showed up prefectly well on radar.

On top of all that Bosch later took as much info as he could from the GTI files to make his Etak project. However he still had to go into deneb to find out how to open the knossos. Although not conclusive I`d say to that points to the GTI not knowing how to open the portal. Don`t tell me they destroyed the evidence cause there were other equally damaging things the GTI didn`t destroy. Besides if you were in full rebellion against the GTA who cares if you let the shivans in?

Also I don`t believe that the shivans don`t have the resources to defend the portal. They could have just sat there with the Lucifer and destroyed all comers. Unless in subspace the Lucifer is indestructable.

Posted by AAPM on 09-02-2002 02:23 AM:

No one would notice a mayday if communications were jammed by a vessel with the appropriate equipment.

As for the stealth systems being fitted onto only fighters and bombers, that would seem a bit ludicrous on the Shivans' part. Super race or no, you wouldn't want someone to be able to lock onto your ship and deduce where your exposed parts are. And while the Lucifer may have seemed impervious to Terran-Vasudan weapons of that era, Cains, Liliths, and Demons most certainly were not. As for not knowing if cap ships had stealth or not, was there any indication in the intro cutscene of any Shivan ships being targetted? The Lucifer was present. If the Manticores and Lucifer both had stealth capabilities as well as the Scorpions in the first (player) encounter with the Shivans, I think it would safe to conjecture that the other ships in the Shivan fleet had stealth tech.

As for the Lucifer not being sighted, good point. The only thing I can think of is that the nodes were devoid of any traffic at certain times, or that the Shivans can make a direct jump from Gamma Draconis to Delta Serpentis. Can't much think of that, other then how close you have to be to the node to be able to use it.

As for not tipping the GTA off about the Knossos, technology is crucial to winning war. GTI most certainly would not want the combined forces of the GTA and PVN getting hold of advanced tech that could counter what GTI had, especially seeing how the combined conventional might of the GTA and PVN dwarfed that of the GTI. Since GTI can't win through a conventional means, they may as well try to win through a technological one.

As for the Shivans not having the resources for keeping the Portal open, it all depends on the number of ships the Shivans had to guard the Knossos and still carry out their objective at the same time. If you were referring to why the Shivans didn't call for back-up from their forces inside the nebula-half of the Knossos, I guess you'd have to ask the Shivans, or at least a FS developer who's willing to spill the beans.

From how the Shivan fleet acted, I don't believe its primary goal was to guard the Knossos. I believe at best, a routine patrol/sanitation process is more in order. The Lucifer is like the poison spray used to kill vermin by exterminators. You don't have your bug spray guarding the front door if you're going to hunt and kill vermin at your neighbor's!

And though, we'll never know, the Hades might have been the only ship of that era that could've harmed the Lucifer outside of subspace.

I never said that the Shivans were 100% defeated before the Hades was destroyed. The GTA could still have been hunting the scattered remnants during the Battle of Jotenheim Station.

Even if the Shivans could make a direct jump from Gamma Draconis to another system or Ross 128, which ships do we know of can make such a long jump? It could be possible that only a select few such as the Demons and Lucifer could execute such a maneuver. Heck, it could have just been the Lucifer itself.

As far as GTI not caring if anyone knew that they left the Shivans in? Again, I don't think they would want the GTA or PVN access to Knossos tech.

And for GTI not knowing how to open the portal? Evidence could have been destroyed when Jotenheim and the Hades were blown sky-high. Also, it could be probable that GTI or any Terrans opened the Knossos. For all we know, it might've been a rogue or independent Vasudan group that figured it out. After all, aren't there supposed to be vast similarities between Ancient and Vasudan writings?

Wow, that's a long post.

Anyhow, what's your theory revolving around the origins of the first Shivan incursion, GTI, and activation of the Knossos? I'd be interested in hearing them.

Oh, one more thing, I think that you are right about the Hades not being partially operational until the last mission of Silent Threat. Well, I'm spent. Good night.

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Posted by karajorma on 09-02-2002 10:49 AM:

No one would notice a mayday if communications were jammed by a vessel with the appropriate equipment.

Yes the mayday would have been jammed. But surely someone would notice that the ship vanished without a trace. Probably quite quickly too. With jump drives a ship that is an hour late is already so overdue that someone would start wondering what had happened to it.

As for the stealth systems being fitted onto only fighters and bombers, that would seem a bit ludicrous on the Shivans' part. Super race or no, you wouldn't want someone to be able to lock onto your ship and deduce where your exposed parts are. And while the Lucifer may have seemed impervious to Terran-Vasudan weapons of that era, Cains, Liliths, and Demons most certainly were not. As for not knowing if cap ships had stealth or not, was there any indication in the intro cutscene of any Shivan ships being targetted? The Lucifer was present. If the Manticores and Lucifer both had stealth capabilities as well as the Scorpions in the first (player) encounter with the Shivans, I think it would safe to conjecture that the other ships in the Shivan fleet had stealth tech.

By that logic I can catagorically state that the USS Nimitz is a stealth craft. The stealth bomber is invisible to radar so B52's must also be.
1) Steath may only work on small ships
2) There is a possibility that the Lucifer is 8000 years old (something very similar was mentioned by the ancients). Maybe it is older than the stealth technology.
3) The shivan ships that jumped in during the intro DID show up on the radar display. That could simply be an error (there have been plenty in the FS2 intro and I don`t particularly want to re-ignite that debate again)

As for not tipping the GTA off about the Knossos, technology is crucial to winning war. GTI most certainly would not want the combined forces of the GTA and PVN getting hold of advanced tech that could counter what GTI had, especially seeing how the combined conventional might of the GTA and PVN dwarfed that of the GTI. Since GTI can't win through a conventional means, they may as well try to win through a technological one.

The knossos tech is incredibly hard to understand. Even the more advanced GTVA estimated it would take 5 years to build a gate based on the knossos. I doubt the GTA could learn anything useful from the knossos quickly enough to make a difference.

As for the Shivans not having the resources for keeping the Portal open, it all depends on the number of ships the Shivans had to guard the Knossos and still carry out their objective at the same time. If you were referring to why the Shivans didn't call for back-up from their forces inside the nebula-half of the Knossos, I guess you'd have to ask the Shivans, or at least a FS developer who's willing to spill the beans.

That's a bit of a cop out surely. I doubt the shivans would be stupid enough to allow the enemy to cut their supply lines. IF the GTI opened the portal who closed it? If the hades did get to the portal to attack the shivans why didn`t they send reinforcements through?

Even if the Shivans could make a direct jump from Gamma Draconis to another system or Ross 128, which ships do we know of can make such a long jump? It could be possible that only a select few such as the Demons and Lucifer could execute such a maneuver. Heck, it could have just been the Lucifer itself.

You aren`t helping your theory by stating that. If only the lucifer could jump from GD to Ross 128 then that makes it more likely that the rest of the ships would have been spotted on their way to Ross 128.

And for GTI not knowing how to open the portal? Evidence could have been destroyed when Jotenheim and the Hades were blown sky-high. Also, it could be probable that GTI or any Terrans opened the Knossos. For all we know, it might've been a rogue or independent Vasudan group that figured it out. After all, aren't there supposed to be vast similarities between Ancient and Vasudan writings?

Now the GTI worked with the vasudans? This theory gets more intricate with every revision.

Anyhow, what's your theory revolving around the origins of the first Shivan incursion, GTI, and activation of the Knossos? I'd be interested in hearing them.

Well lets apply Occam's Razor to this. You`ve already stated that you believe it possible that the shivans can use jump nodes that the GTVA can`t. Why not simply theorise that the shivans used such a node to jump in directly to Ross 128 from shivan space?

The knossos wasn`t activated at all during the Great War.

However Bosch's research into the Hades Rebellion gave him the belief that mankind had to ally with shivans or be destroyed. It also gave him the information he needed to make the Etak device and communicate with the shivans. This suggests that the GTI did manage to communicate with the live shivan prisoners that they had. Either that or they had managed to decrypt shivan communications.
From that they learned about the knossos (the shivans were looking for it but it's been 8000 years since they last saw it and they didn`t want to stop and ask for directions). The GTI was destroyed before they could do anything with the info. The information was buried under tons of eyes only after the rebellion and no one realised its importance until Bosch uncovered it and went looking through ancient sites trying to find out how to reactivate the portal.

There's nothing actually wrong with your theory but it asks for a lot more leaps of faith than the simpler theory that the shivans jumped in at Ross 128.

Posted by AAPM on 09-02-2002 05:02 PM:

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Posted by karajorma on 09-02-2002 10:36 PM:

I never said that GTI worked with the Vasudans in opening the Knossos. I said it could be possible that an independent Vasudan group could have stumbled upon it and opened it. This might be more probable then GTI doing it, because the Ancients' and Vasudan writings hold basic similarities that don't seem true with Terran writings. GTI could simply have stumbled or learned of this and sent forces to intercept them. By the time GTI arrives, the Vasudans have already opened the portal and gone in. GTI follows while first securing the Knossos, they fight with themselves, the Shivans take note, and all hell breaks loose.

That makes a bit more sense. It's the rest I find harder to believe. Now if you claim all that happened. That the GTI then closed the portal and that the shivans came in through Ross 128 to stop both the GTA and PVN because they didn`t want their fighting to spill over into their territory you might have a decent explaination for the cause of the Great War. Not the most likely one but at least a viable theory.
However you also have to explain how the vasudans could get to Gamma Draconis considering that they'd have to go through several inhabited terran systems (there were vasudans fighting the humans in Ross 128 so it isn`t impossible but it is hard to explain).
But you'll never convince me that the shivans came through Gamma Draconis but chose a route through an unstable jump node rather than simply going through a more stable one and attacking Capella.

It is possible that the Lucifer is 8,000 years old and may have very well existed before the Shivans' current form of stealth tech. And just because Outpost Riviera detected a few blips on radar, still doesn't prove that the Lucifer doesn't have stealth capability. It could well be that the Lucifer was close enough to be detected (remember, the Scorpions do occasionally show up on radar depending on the proximity). Another possibility is that Riviera's sensor package is more powerful than that of smaller Terran vessels. Another thing is just because they occasionally show on radar, doesn't mean that they can be targetted.

But we aren`t talking about being targetted. We are talking about showing up on display (i.e a pilot noticing that something else is in the area). You don`t need to target the lucifer to know that it's not of human construction. You only need to see it. The shivans never displayed any sign of cloaking technology so as soon as you see a red blip on the HUD it's all over for shivans trying to sneak past unnoticed.

No, I don't think that the Shivans would be stupid enough to leave the Gate unprotected. They left it underprotected, thinking that the Terrans and Vasudans would be so occupied trying to counterattack the vicious Shivan offensive, they would be too overwhelmed and disoriented to stage any meaningful offensive of their own, especially if the GTA and PVN don't know the existence of the Knossos let alone its location. GTI of course is still trying to keep its secret agenda hidden for the time being until midway or so into Silent Threat when Shivan forces are scattered and not as organized. As to why the Shivans at the Knossos didn't call for reinforcements, I can only assume that there was radio silence from the Lucifer's task force and the Knossos guardians. So the scenario would be, Shivans at the gate get surprised to see GTD Hades blow them to kingdom come before they can call home, the Knossos is shut off and all remaining Shivan craft approaching the Knossos are either destroyed by the Hades and GTI blockade forces, or crushed by GTA/PVN hunting teams.

If the radio silence theory doesn't hold water, then you've got me.

Seems a bit unlikely that the shivans after losing the Lucifer would be so stupid as to maintain radio silence and get themselves wiped out.
And you still haven`t managed to explain how the GTI managed to get the Hades to Gamma Draconis and back again without it being seen. Unlike the Lucifer the Hades probably didn`t have the ability to use unstable jump nodes so how did the Hades a gigantic brightly painted ship manage to sneak past the GTA without being seen?

Now as for your theory, it's not that I don't believe the possibility, but in terms of the Shivans' knowledge of subspace and their tech, and in how little we know about them in general, there are questions that need to be answered. The biggest question I have is in regards to where the boundaries of Shivan space lie and how far it is from Ross 128. Also, the question of Shivan subspace jump engine technology comes into play. What's the max range for the Shivan fleet to sustain/execute jumps? What ships have this capability? Just the Lucifer, perhaps the Demons, or do all Shivan ships have this ability?

The fact that the shivans showed up in Ross 128, Ikeya and Ribos at first and that those ships included cruisers like the Taranis shows that whichever theory you believe all the shivan capships must have been able to jump using unstable nodes (well unless you`re going to continue to believe that the GTA dispite being at a state of war is going to let 300m ships sneak past them at Delta Serpentis, Vega and Capella).
As for the rest of your questions they aren`t questions that can be answered by anyone except [V] However since you insist here goes.

1) where are boundaries of Shivan space and how far it is from Ross 128

Close enough that the shivans could jump fromthem or scout past them far enough to enter GTA space at Ross 128.

2) What's the max range for the Shivan fleet to sustain/execute jumps?

At least the distance from shivan space to Ross 128.

Did Bosch get his info from official GTI files or GTA recounts and analysis regarding the Hades rebellion. If the former, how much info did he get considering most info was destroyed at the Battle of Jotenheim? If the latter, how accurate are the GTA reports concerning the specifics of the Hades rebellion and did they have the complete set of GTI files before they all went up in smoke?

It is possible that Bosch received only partial info, unless it states otherwise in FS2. I don't recall, its been awhile since I've played all the way through. I'm still at the part of killing the NTD Vindicator.

1) You`re continually assuming that the GTI had all (or most of) their information on the Jotenheim. This is not a good assumption. The GTA knew about the hades before the final mission of Silent Threat (they must have got that info from somewhere!) and they also knew about the shivan experiments being carried out on the Jotenheim. No doubt someone sang like a canary or they found records somewhere explaining major parts of the GTI plans.

2) It doesn`t really matter where Bosch got his info from. I mearly mentioned all of the above just in case you thought Bosch finding the portal was too much of a co-incidence. It doesn`t really matter.

The simplest explaination which explains all the facts from FS1 & FS2 is as follows.

The shivans for some unknown reason jump into GTVA space in Ross 128. Again for unknown reasons they attack the GTA and PVN.

30 years later Bosch guided by the information the GTVA does have on the Hades Rebelion comes to believe that humanity doesn`t have a future with the vasudans and must instead make peace with the shivans.
He either finds out about the Knossos from the GTVA (somewhere) or discovers it himself (maybe from reading up on the arecheological digs at ancient sites).
Bosch goes to deneb and finds out how to open the gate and then does so.

That is the simplist explaination It explains all the facts and sticks to the plot. Your theory is needlessly complicated and full of plot holes.

1) The shivans had to be unwilling to call in reinforcements.

2) The Hades had to somehow travel to GD undetected, wipe out the shivans and then travel back without being spotted BEFORE it supposedly became operational.

3) The GTI (or this vasudan sect you mention) had to somehow discover the location of the knossos, study it and open it without anyone else finding out about it. They also had to do all this BEFORE anyone else learned about the existance of the ancients.

Posted by AAPM on 09-03-2002 12:21 AM:

Well, I'm spent. I can't for the life of me figure out how to go about how Vasudan forces or the Hades could make it past a whole bunch of Terran outposts unless A) the terran outposts were completely destroyed (which would inly work in the case of the Hades), or B) those ships had new stealth and cloaking devices (which seem highly unlikely).

As for the Shivans being unwilling to call for reinforcements? If Shivan space is just a hop, skip, and a jump away, I'm sure it wouldn't have been too painful for them to call in other ships. Given that this did not happen, I'm sure we can say that Shivan space is located far from T-V space. Of course then the question arises, why didn't they just stay in T-V space 8,000 years ago when they killed the Ancients? Also, if Shivan space is so far from T-V space, it would indicate that the Shivans were coming here anyways and suggests that the 1st Shivan incursion is not a reactionary move like it appears to be in FS2.

But asides from this, your contention points are well-made.

__________________
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Posted by Slasher on 09-03-2002 05:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by karajorma
Your theory is needlessly complicated and full of plot holes.

Heh, that's probably where the Shivans came from. A giant, gapping, plot hole.

Posted by karajorma on 09-03-2002 08:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by AAPM
As for the Shivans being unwilling to call for reinforcements? If Shivan space is just a hop, skip, and a jump away, I'm sure it wouldn't have been too painful for them to call in other ships. Given that this did not happen, I'm sure we can say that Shivan space is located far from T-V space. Of course then the question arises, why didn't they just stay in T-V space 8,000 years ago when they killed the Ancients? Also, if Shivan space is so far from T-V space, it would indicate that the Shivans were coming here anyways and suggests that the 1st Shivan incursion is not a reactionary move like it appears to be in FS2.

I'll agree with you there. Shivan space probably is a long way away from GTVA space except via the knossos. The back of the FS2 box refers to the first incursion as a scouting fleet. Their actions certainly seem to agree with that. The shivans didn`t seem to have a clear goal at the start of FS2. By the end they appear to be trying to destroy (at least) the homeworlds of both species.
Most likely since GTVA space is so far from shivan space the shivans returned to their space and the knossos locked itself due to inactivity (went into standby mode)
Maybe back then the shivans didn't have enough resources to take over all the space the ancients held. Perhaps they still don`t now.

Posted by JamieK on 09-03-2002 09:12 AM:

Dudes!

There is only a 2 jump trip from Shivan Space to Ross 128 and those two systems are R463 and Laramis.

The GTA discover Laramis when they get the Frail Cannon way after the attack on Ross 128.

So, they could have have entered from that location.

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