VWBB - Terran capships too well rounded

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-- Terran capships too well rounded (https://volitionwatch.game-warden.com/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=6678)

Posted by F S W on 07-05-2002 04:55 PM:

I don't agree with everything you said, but you do have some interesting ideas.
The Hecate was never the badarse ship that it should have been.
And don't get me started on the Colossus...

Posted by Stalker on 07-05-2002 07:16 PM:

Yes I *know* about the limitations of the FS2 engine (if only it werent 3 years old).

The Deimos did NOT lose their flak cannons so they can still take down bombs (just not bombers). Im assuming you can make Aeolus class ships relatively quickly (they're small) and the thought I'm going with is that the GTVA already has sensor screens set up in its systems to provide alert in case Shivans happen to pop up (Which I cant believe they didnt do after the Great War). And for the blockade bit, I believe a modified Hecate could take care of that with help from the Mjolnir RBCs (unless you missed to load of AAA beams). And as for a wimpy fighter escort (assuming the Eurynome hasnt been taken down by a capship that jumped in close) thats 250 WINGS! 1000 fighters/bombers, more than enough to handle a good sized threat (like a Ravana or Sathanas).

And I'd like to let you know the Colossus had problems from the beginning, it all started when someone dropped their wrench into the firing control systems...

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Posted by Stalker on 07-05-2002 07:16 PM:

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Posted by karajorma on 07-05-2002 07:32 PM:

The aeolus might be small but it's also very expensive. That's why they stopped making them. As for your carrier having 250 wings isn`t that a mistake based on your believing that the hecate had 150? 250 wings is an enormous number.
I seriously doubt the GTVA could build such a monster. Even if they could one well placed meson bomb and it's a pile of scrap metal.

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Posted by karajorma on 07-05-2002 07:32 PM:

Posted by Lady Rose on 07-05-2002 08:15 PM:

Give me 100 wings of Perseus and 50 wings Bongarades and one neat Hecade which could carry them and I'll take over the world!

While we are at it I take Shivans out just add-on in the deal

150 wing of GTVA best fighters and huge size Hecate... That would be bigger than Colossus or Shatanas

< Deimos = 0 fighter
Orion = around 100 fighter
Hecade = 150 fighter
Colossus = 60 wing

Or something like that...

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Posted by Lady Rose on 07-05-2002 08:15 PM:

Posted by karajorma on 07-05-2002 09:29 PM:

Even the largest estimate for the sathanas had it carrying around 480 fighters. This ship would carry double that!
How quickly would it be able to launch thes fighters? Remember that a huge fighter complement is useless if the ship can`t launch them. The colossus had 60 wings but couldn`t launch them quickly enough to make a difference.
6 Hecates could probably launch their fighters faster than this one super-carrier could. Plus the hecates couldn`t be disabled as quickly and easily as a single ship.
Finally and most damaging for this ship, it took 20 years to build the colossus. How long would it take to build this monster given that it must be bigger than both the colossus and sathanas to carry that many fighters?
You couldn`t squeeze that many ships onto a destroyer sized vessel and still have space for the engines that could take it up to the top speed of 45m/s you`ve said you`d give this ship. This ship must be at least the size of the colossus and very probably bigger. By the time it's finished the rest of the ships guarding it would be obsolete anyway.

Posted by karajorma on 07-05-2002 09:29 PM:

Posted by Stalker on 07-05-2002 11:33 PM:

There are NO anti capship weapons on it and thus the reactor is MUCH smaller, it has little armor making it lighter, and most important the smaller reactors I mentioned in my first post (because of the knowledge they gain from the Capella incident) allows much more room to carry fighters. It is slightly longer and about 250 m wider than an Orion (kinda looks like the GTDn Bastion model) It has a large launch bay and runway strip. If you notice the fighters in the Colossus do not take up that much room. The wings should be able to launch at a rate of about 15 per minute, 17 minutes to get all 250 wings off the ship, and 60 fighters or bombers a minute. This is NOT built to engage other capital ships so it can maintain a reasonable size while carrying a large amount of fighters (and no I did not base this off the mistaken wing/fighter numbers of the Hecate, and its Boanerges I believe). And as for holding the crew (roughly 11,000) I'm thinking submarine style barracks! WOOOHOOO!

Oh and as for the meson bomb taking one out, why the hell would they blow up their own ship?

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Posted by Stalker on 07-05-2002 11:33 PM:

__________________
"This is the Colossus now on your momma."

"I'm sorry if I can't answereach of your questions Bill-"

"The names Mallor-"

"Whatever."

Posted by Shrike on 07-06-2002 07:20 AM:

Personally, I disagree with this. The way the ships are set up in FS2 is an excellent mix of roles, allowing any ship to act defensively and offensively. Cruisers without cap beams would have difficulty blowing up freighters, let alone anything with armor. 'Vettes with a reduced defensive outfit will become easier targets for fightercraft.

If you look at modern military ships, they strike a balance between offense (cruise missiles) and defense (SAMs).

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Posted by Shrike on 07-06-2002 07:20 AM:

Posted by karajorma on 07-06-2002 08:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Stalker
Oh and as for the meson bomb taking one out, why the hell would they blow up their own ship?

A further example of you not thinking things through. "We'll never need to defend against our own ships!" Tell that to the people killed by the NTF. You build a ship taking into account any weapon systems you know including your own. Besides who says the shivans haven`t got something just as powerful as the meson bomb?

quote:

There are NO anti capship weapons on it and thus the reactor is MUCH smaller, it has little armor making it lighter, and most important the smaller reactors I mentioned in my first post (because of the knowledge they gain from the Capella incident) allows much more room to carry fighters. It is slightly longer and about 250 m wider than an Orion (kinda looks like the GTDn Bastion model) It has a large launch bay and runway strip. If you notice the fighters in the Colossus do not take up that much room. The wings should be able to launch at a rate of about 15 per minute, 17 minutes to get all 250 wings off the ship, and 60 fighters or bombers a minute. This is NOT built to engage other capital ships so it can maintain a reasonable size while carrying a large amount of fighters (and no I did not base this off the mistaken wing/fighter numbers of the Hecate, and its Boanerges I believe). And as for holding the crew (roughly 11,000) I'm thinking submarine style barracks! WOOOHOOO!

Yes but you`ve given the ship a ridiculously high top speed so you can`t say it has a small reactor. Something has to be powering the engines!
If you want to claim that the GTVA has got a lot of knowledge from the shivans that's fine for whatever universe you`re runnning this in but judging from the size and power of shivan craft their reactor technology isn`t far ahead of ours. Shivan ships of the same class have only a bit more power than their GTVA counterparts and most of that is channeled into the weapons.

The main problem I have with your approach though is the "all eggs in one basket"ness of it. Should something happen to the carrier the rest of the fleet is virtually useless.

You've said that the carrier has to flee from any capital ships but what happens if the enemy use a subspace tracker and follow it?

If you put this fleet up against one of similar size in the GTVA you`d lose. A well trained admiral would exploit the weaknesses I`ve stated and kill the carrier. Once that was done the rest of the fleet would be deprived of their fighter cover and would be easy pickings.

Posted by karajorma on 07-06-2002 08:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Stalker
Oh and as for the meson bomb taking one out, why the hell would they blow up their own ship?

quote:

There are NO anti capship weapons on it and thus the reactor is MUCH smaller, it has little armor making it lighter, and most important the smaller reactors I mentioned in my first post (because of the knowledge they gain from the Capella incident) allows much more room to carry fighters. It is slightly longer and about 250 m wider than an Orion (kinda looks like the GTDn Bastion model) It has a large launch bay and runway strip. If you notice the fighters in the Colossus do not take up that much room. The wings should be able to launch at a rate of about 15 per minute, 17 minutes to get all 250 wings off the ship, and 60 fighters or bombers a minute. This is NOT built to engage other capital ships so it can maintain a reasonable size while carrying a large amount of fighters (and no I did not base this off the mistaken wing/fighter numbers of the Hecate, and its Boanerges I believe). And as for holding the crew (roughly 11,000) I'm thinking submarine style barracks! WOOOHOOO!

Posted by Pr011 on 07-06-2002 09:58 AM:

quote:
a well balanced fleet

And say good-bye to well balanced ships. Their ability to operate by themselves is gone. As Karajorma said, any fleet (And considering the size of the carrier, it would have to be HUGE) would lose the ability to be deployed to different areas.

For example, the GTVA may deploy a battlegroup to a system, with orders to defend it. The Admiral in command of this fleet would send a destroyer and a few escorts to every node (say, three) in the system. He would be safe in the knowledge that each of these destroyers should be able to deploy enough fighters and bombers to counter nearly any threat, plus, they would have a 'combat patrol sphere' around each destroyer, and therefore all the entrances to the system. No doubt he'd have a destroyer hanging back to reinforce any node under too much pressure.

With this new fleet design, the carrier, being the only vessel with enough fighters, would have to stay in the middle of the system, sending fighters to nodes, and having to bring them back. If a node comes under attack, it takes time to get more fighters to the combat zone. The carrier can't move, of course, in case the other nodes are hit.

Frankly, would the carrier be able to handle deploying and taking in this number of fighters anyway?

The carrier's escorts would have been sent off to each node to defend it, reducing the protection of the carrier itself. A well thought out enemy would be able to put pressure on one node, blast their way through another and hit the carrier. With no anti-fighter weapons, it would be made short work of. With the core of the fleet gone (And all those poor fighters without a base) the rest of this large fleet would collapse in on itself.

Oh, on that note, flak is nowhere near as good at knocking down bombs as anti-fighter beams.

Current GTVA destroyer groups are small and operate independently. That's what makes them so flexible. Put several of these groups together, and you have a flexible force made of several independent components. Knock one out, and the rest of the fleet can still carry out the mission at hand.

And lets be careful not to turn this into a flame war? Please?

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Posted by Pr011 on 07-06-2002 09:58 AM:

quote:
a well balanced fleet

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Posted by Lady Rose on 07-06-2002 10:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Shrike
Personally, I disagree with this. The way the ships are set up in FS2 is an excellent mix of roles, allowing any ship to act defensively and offensively. Cruisers without cap beams would have difficulty blowing up freighters, let alone anything with armor. 'Vettes with a reduced defensive outfit will become easier targets for fightercraft.

Couldn't agreed with you more, ships are perfectly balanced.

Posted by Lady Rose on 07-06-2002 10:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Shrike
Personally, I disagree with this. The way the ships are set up in FS2 is an excellent mix of roles, allowing any ship to act defensively and offensively. Cruisers without cap beams would have difficulty blowing up freighters, let alone anything with armor. 'Vettes with a reduced defensive outfit will become easier targets for fightercraft.

Couldn't agreed with you more, ships are perfectly balanced.

Posted by Stalker on 07-06-2002 07:28 PM:

Excuse me while I put on my asbestos suit.

:AHEM:

The carrier does have AAA beams, read over its description again.

The whole *takes forever for fighters to get anywhere* did you forget they have subspace capability, you launch from the Aquitaine in the nebula on normal power and return to it by using subspace... interesting.

And it wasnt against other ships against the meson BOMB, which last I checked there arent that many of to steal.

And as for what universe I'm in, I'm in one I've only played through a half dozen times (and trust me I know thats not many) and where I'm at is fifteen years or so after the Capella incident.

And how about I cut the fighter compliment of the carrier in half and make it so it can survive a broadside from an Orion with 15% hull strength. Happy?

Dissent is no longer a problem (pirates are) and these battlegroups enable the tracking and destruction of rogues.

Now if you'll excuse me Im going to go defend some transports and watch the Colossus go down.

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