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Posted by DTP on 04-24-2002 04:54 AM:

No offense icefire but; bull.

A shield is not treated as a sub object. Btw does limits are setup by the conversion program(s), and not the game. But PCS do not have does limits such as max shield polygon count <= 800 as in the early cobtopof program, and =< 1600 for modelview.

Again No offense meant, but you have misguided me before with your incorrect statements. Plz do check it out by trial and error, before you make such statements, without actually knowing if it what you are writing is correct.

If you wonder when you misguided me was when you stated that a model would have to be closed. Sure it is long ago but I still recall it.

A simple Sphere that has 1000 polygons around a simple cube was all you needed in order to see if you where wrong.

Never assume for a minute what other people say are 100% correct.

But this is,

Since, I have it working in Freespace 2.

/bragging

Furthermore, I even got a shield of 6003 polygons into the game, but it proved unstable, the game crashed after a while, properly when a stream / laser hit a bad area on the shield.

I must have a breached my bubble somewhere, a flipped normal, or even a hole in the shield.

But regarding the 2800+ poly shield

There is no slowdown or dragging, and it is effective against anything than beam fire and collisions. And it is so tight to the hull that you have to be Right up against the hull( collision range) in order to be under it And the turrets are shielded too. A pleasant surprise was that Rotating turrets are shielded even when they rotate outside the bubble, there are no Dmg effect or shield effect, or damage done to the turret when the shield is there.

pics, sure, note these are in the early development stages.

http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dtp/images/fastone.html

There are more pics in the Lucifer shield Thread on the HLP under Freespace modding. But that forum is offline ("internal server error") right now.

/end bragging

__________________
Think Big
Invade Space
---------
Staff modeller on FS1 port
http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/

Posted by DTP on 04-24-2002 04:54 AM:

No offense icefire but; bull.

A shield is not treated as a sub object. Btw does limits are setup by the conversion program(s), and not the game. But PCS do not have does limits such as max shield polygon count <= 800 as in the early cobtopof program, and =< 1600 for modelview.

Again No offense meant, but you have misguided me before with your incorrect statements. Plz do check it out by trial and error, before you make such statements, without actually knowing if it what you are writing is correct.

If you wonder when you misguided me was when you stated that a model would have to be closed. Sure it is long ago but I still recall it.

A simple Sphere that has 1000 polygons around a simple cube was all you needed in order to see if you where wrong.

Never assume for a minute what other people say are 100% correct.

But this is,

Since, I have it working in Freespace 2.

/bragging

Furthermore, I even got a shield of 6003 polygons into the game, but it proved unstable, the game crashed after a while, properly when a stream / laser hit a bad area on the shield.

I must have a breached my bubble somewhere, a flipped normal, or even a hole in the shield.

But regarding the 2800+ poly shield

There is no slowdown or dragging, and it is effective against anything than beam fire and collisions. And it is so tight to the hull that you have to be Right up against the hull( collision range) in order to be under it And the turrets are shielded too. A pleasant surprise was that Rotating turrets are shielded even when they rotate outside the bubble, there are no Dmg effect or shield effect, or damage done to the turret when the shield is there.

pics, sure, note these are in the early development stages.

http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dtp/images/fastone.html

There are more pics in the Lucifer shield Thread on the HLP under Freespace modding. But that forum is offline ("internal server error") right now.

/end bragging

__________________
Think Big
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---------
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Posted by BabProj Team on 04-24-2002 02:18 PM:

quote:
Again No offense meant, but you have misguided me before with your incorrect statements. Plz do check it out by trial and error, before you make such statements, without actually knowing if it what you are writing is correct.

If you wonder when you misguided me was when you stated that a model would have to be closed. Sure it is long ago but I still recall it.

A simple Sphere that has 1000 polygons around a simple cube was all you needed in order to see if you where wrong.

Never assume for a minute what other people say are 100% correct.

I was relaying the knowledge of countless hours spent by people on The Babylon Project (Eternal One, Tomcat, etc), Dark, Bobboau, Styxx, and others doing this kind of research before you even started into this. Perhaps PCS has opened all kinds of limits up recently but there are still plenty of limits.

As far as having closed meshes, the last I heard, you still have to do that with EVERY game, not just FreeSpace 2. Maybe I'm outdated but my understanding was that you have to do this. Maybe I'm not using the right terminology...someone do correct me.

No, I didn't go and test it for myself. Some of my knowledge is limited, but I asked hundreds of questions to these people. What can we do? What can't we do? Those were the answers and they backed me up when people like yourself asked them. I asked them because they had done the research and knew and it was crucial that I knew so that I could determine how to put everything together in the grand scheme of things. That was part of my research, that was my understanding.

Then theres the assumption that I was guiding you which is not what I was doing. I was just relaying information and making it clear to people what could and could not be done. You probably read it from a forum like TBP and the reason for my certainty was to actually show people that there ARE LIMITS to what can be done and a full CGI quality model in FreeSpace 2 isn't possible (this was suggested more than once).

I still don't think that a shield with more polys than most ships in the entire game could be a good thing. I can see FreeSpace 2 having a major headache when a swarm of fighters starts shooting at it from all angles. But you know, if it works and your happy with it, go ahead and do it. I'm telling you what I know and thats all that I can do. Thats all that you can do too. I don't think I've done any wrong to you nor do you really have any claim for saying that I've done wrong or "misguided" you in any way.

Thats how I see it.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Posted by IceFire on 04-24-2002 02:18 PM:

quote:
Again No offense meant, but you have misguided me before with your incorrect statements. Plz do check it out by trial and error, before you make such statements, without actually knowing if it what you are writing is correct.

If you wonder when you misguided me was when you stated that a model would have to be closed. Sure it is long ago but I still recall it.

A simple Sphere that has 1000 polygons around a simple cube was all you needed in order to see if you where wrong.

Never assume for a minute what other people say are 100% correct.

I was relaying the knowledge of countless hours spent by people on The Babylon Project (Eternal One, Tomcat, etc), Dark, Bobboau, Styxx, and others doing this kind of research before you even started into this. Perhaps PCS has opened all kinds of limits up recently but there are still plenty of limits.

As far as having closed meshes, the last I heard, you still have to do that with EVERY game, not just FreeSpace 2. Maybe I'm outdated but my understanding was that you have to do this. Maybe I'm not using the right terminology...someone do correct me.

No, I didn't go and test it for myself. Some of my knowledge is limited, but I asked hundreds of questions to these people. What can we do? What can't we do? Those were the answers and they backed me up when people like yourself asked them. I asked them because they had done the research and knew and it was crucial that I knew so that I could determine how to put everything together in the grand scheme of things. That was part of my research, that was my understanding.

Then theres the assumption that I was guiding you which is not what I was doing. I was just relaying information and making it clear to people what could and could not be done. You probably read it from a forum like TBP and the reason for my certainty was to actually show people that there ARE LIMITS to what can be done and a full CGI quality model in FreeSpace 2 isn't possible (this was suggested more than once).

I still don't think that a shield with more polys than most ships in the entire game could be a good thing. I can see FreeSpace 2 having a major headache when a swarm of fighters starts shooting at it from all angles. But you know, if it works and your happy with it, go ahead and do it. I'm telling you what I know and thats all that I can do. Thats all that you can do too. I don't think I've done any wrong to you nor do you really have any claim for saying that I've done wrong or "misguided" you in any way.

Thats how I see it.

__________________
- IceFire
Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

Posted by DTP on 04-24-2002 08:57 PM:

Thumbs up

That’s ok Icefire,

This is rumor control.
--------------------------

Rumor:


Fact :

Rumor:
Fact:

----------------
You see Icefire as many ppl count your experience as fact since you have been around in the community for so long( a little longer than me) you in-ad verdantly are spreading rumors that are wrong.

With your “position” comes responsibility, so think twice about what you stating when you are un-sure of what you think is correct.

__________________
Think Big
Invade Space
---------
Staff modeller on FS1 port
http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/

Posted by DTP on 04-24-2002 08:57 PM:

Thumbs up

That’s ok Icefire,

This is rumor control.
--------------------------

Rumor:


Fact :

Rumor:
Fact:

----------------
You see Icefire as many ppl count your experience as fact since you have been around in the community for so long( a little longer than me) you in-ad verdantly are spreading rumors that are wrong.

With your “position” comes responsibility, so think twice about what you stating when you are un-sure of what you think is correct.

__________________
Think Big
Invade Space
---------
Staff modeller on FS1 port
http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/

Posted by Blues on 04-24-2002 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by DTP
That’s ok Icefire,

This is rumor control.
--------------------------

Rumor:
    Non-closed meshes are bad

Fact :
    no volition used non closed meshed them self, just try and Convert the Lucifer or a Loki from fs2. Now play around a bit at the Vertexes and move them, and you will find that the models are in fact not closed, but they just look like it.


Rumor:
    shields on cap ships are a head ache for FREESPACE 2

Fact:
    no, a 2800+ shield where successfully stress-tested on the Lucifer while in an hour long no beam attack by 30 fighters / bombers and 3 destroyers and 1 juggernaut. The shield lit up like a Christmas tree. Average FPS was at 55.


----------------
You see Icefire as many ppl count your experience as fact since you have been around in the community for so long( a little longer than me) you in-ad verdantly are spreading rumors that are wrong.

With your “position” comes responsibility, so think twice about what you stating when you are un-sure of what you think is correct.


And you're running what..a Pentium 4, 2.4ghz, with a few gigs of RAM, a GeForce 4, and all the detail options turned way, way down?

Posted by Blues on 04-24-2002 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by DTP
That’s ok Icefire,

This is rumor control.
--------------------------

Rumor:
    Non-closed meshes are bad

Fact :
    no volition used non closed meshed them self, just try and Convert the Lucifer or a Loki from fs2. Now play around a bit at the Vertexes and move them, and you will find that the models are in fact not closed, but they just look like it.


Rumor:
    shields on cap ships are a head ache for FREESPACE 2

Fact:
    no, a 2800+ shield where successfully stress-tested on the Lucifer while in an hour long no beam attack by 30 fighters / bombers and 3 destroyers and 1 juggernaut. The shield lit up like a Christmas tree. Average FPS was at 55.


----------------
You see Icefire as many ppl count your experience as fact since you have been around in the community for so long( a little longer than me) you in-ad verdantly are spreading rumors that are wrong.

With your “position” comes responsibility, so think twice about what you stating when you are un-sure of what you think is correct.


And you're running what..a Pentium 4, 2.4ghz, with a few gigs of RAM, a GeForce 4, and all the detail options turned way, way down?

Posted by DTP on 04-24-2002 09:50 PM:

detail *****
system Tbird 800mhz
GFX GF2 mmx 400

__________________
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---------
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http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/

Posted by DTP on 04-24-2002 09:50 PM:

detail *****
system Tbird 800mhz
GFX GF2 mmx 400

__________________
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Invade Space
---------
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http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/

Posted by GalacticEmperor on 04-25-2002 02:50 AM:

Okay, the point is, shields are pretty, but yes, it is possible to overload your system.

__________________
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Posted by GalacticEmperor on 04-25-2002 02:50 AM:

Okay, the point is, shields are pretty, but yes, it is possible to overload your system.

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Posted by ltnarol on 04-25-2002 05:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by DTP
detail *****
system Tbird 800mhz
GFX GF2 mmx 400
well, thats quite a bit more than most of us, i personally have a 550mhz AMD and a 16bit 3d accelerator, running off of 128megs of ram. I couldnt survive 2800 polys of shields being lit up like that. IceFire has a point: there are limits for reasons, while im sure some people can support a game using CGI quality models in a running battle, the fact is that most people's PCs can't, and thats why we use models with lower polys even when we can adjust the engine limits. Some limits can be done away with, but some have very practical reasons even today.

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Posted by ltnarol on 04-25-2002 05:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by DTP
detail *****
system Tbird 800mhz
GFX GF2 mmx 400
well, thats quite a bit more than most of us, i personally have a 550mhz AMD and a 16bit 3d accelerator, running off of 128megs of ram. I couldnt survive 2800 polys of shields being lit up like that. IceFire has a point: there are limits for reasons, while im sure some people can support a game using CGI quality models in a running battle, the fact is that most people's PCs can't, and thats why we use models with lower polys even when we can adjust the engine limits. Some limits can be done away with, but some have very practical reasons even today.

__________________
[url="http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/the158th/"]158th Banshee Squadron[/url]

Posted by DTP on 04-25-2002 06:45 PM:

I was actually thinking of getting someone with low end systems to test the shield.

But i have recently tested this on an AMD-k6/3 400 mhz with Voodoo 2 GFX 128 MB (100 mhz) sdram.

The mission where the same as above

Lucifer without shields average fps 25-26.
Lucifer with shields average fps 24-26.

You can always overload a system, just be putting in many ships. I stress tested the Shields, I did not test if a mission with 5 caps ships and 30 fighter / bombers would have an acceptable frame rate.

There is simply no Overloading-taking place. Again there never was any kind of limit in the game regarding the shields.

The limits where imposed on us by those who created the converters like the early CobTopof and cobtopof2.

So my results show that there is no reason for not putting conformed shields on capital ships.

This is one of does "prejudices" that has to be eliminated,
just as "you have to close the mesh".

__________________
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---------
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Posted by DTP on 04-25-2002 06:45 PM:

I was actually thinking of getting someone with low end systems to test the shield.

But i have recently tested this on an AMD-k6/3 400 mhz with Voodoo 2 GFX 128 MB (100 mhz) sdram.

The mission where the same as above

Lucifer without shields average fps 25-26.
Lucifer with shields average fps 24-26.

You can always overload a system, just be putting in many ships. I stress tested the Shields, I did not test if a mission with 5 caps ships and 30 fighter / bombers would have an acceptable frame rate.

There is simply no Overloading-taking place. Again there never was any kind of limit in the game regarding the shields.

The limits where imposed on us by those who created the converters like the early CobTopof and cobtopof2.

So my results show that there is no reason for not putting conformed shields on capital ships.

This is one of does "prejudices" that has to be eliminated,
just as "you have to close the mesh".

__________________
Think Big
Invade Space
---------
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http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/

Posted by IceFire on 04-25-2002 07:55 PM:

DTP, sounds like your on a crusade or something.

__________________
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Volition Watch Project Manager
[url=http://www.volitionwatch.com]Volition Watch[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater]BlackWater Operations[/url], [url=http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon]The Babylon Project[/url], [url=http://terra.sourceforge.net]Machina Terra[/url], [url=http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ott/]Over The Top[/url]

Posted by BabProj Team on 04-25-2002 07:55 PM:

DTP, sounds like your on a crusade or something.

__________________
- The Babylon Project Team

Posted by Cetanu on 04-25-2002 08:21 PM:

true, a crusade for captialship shields - so the poor caps don't get shot by Maxims anymore

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Posted by Cetanu on 04-25-2002 08:21 PM:

true, a crusade for captialship shields - so the poor caps don't get shot by Maxims anymore

__________________
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