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Thats one mystery that will probably always be a mystery.

One thing is for certain, it was not the Ancients, it was a race far far older than they were.

Ahh... IceFire is letting me save my breath

On the question of Russik and Bosch, ETAK simply allowed for the transmission of rudimentary impulses, it was the first step towards communication, but even Bosch cannot truly understand the limitations of his technology.

Russik was armed with the knowledge of ETAK gained from the Iceni, and took it a step further.

The human mind is something very complex, and our lingual and behavioral centers are "hard wired" the way they are, to have certain behaviors and structure that make us human.

By creating a form of genetic hybrid bound to ETAK technologies, Russik was able to take a step in creating true communication with the Shivans beyond behavorial alteration.

However, he was defeated before his final plan on using his hybrids in conjuncture with Shivan systems could be finished.

There are... elements... within the alliance continuing on in an effort to defeat the Shivans using ETAK-based technologies...

...Twilight will begin to answer these questions in a fashion that stays true to the official FreeSpace universe. Much the same way that Black Water Operations will stay as true to canon materials as possible in it's rendition of the return to Sol.

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Ace
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quote:

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Originally posted by Ace:
There are... elements... within the alliance continuing on in an effort to defeat the Shivans using ETAK-based technologies...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Turnsky:
Might be a good campiagn there.

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quote:

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The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!

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Note: Russik is a character I came up with for Warzone, so its not necessarilly official, although some like Ace pretty much consider it to be anyways.

The idea with Russik is that he always wanted to gain power through using the Shivans. The Vidar was built just before Jotunhiem was destroyed in the Hades rebellion and it was sent to Regulus on autopilot where it then became lost. The hybrids onboard, the results of study of the Shivan captives onboard the Jotunhiem, were in cryogenenic sleep. The Vidar somehow slipped through the Knossos portal that was being hidden (yet another GTI plot perhaps) and disappeared into the nebula. It was Russiks intention to pick the ship up later...but when he tried it had disappared. The Odin was a science vessel that had found it, but unintentionally lead the Shivans back through the portal. With the Odins capture by the GTVA, they discovered what was up, but not playing their hand to Russik, they kept it quite. Thus all the secret message passing to Cole as he ventured into the nebula, was strong armed by Russik (who they knew would find the Vidar), and then eventually regained control and took over the operation again.

Thats pretty much what I was planning for Warzone...and thats what happened.

I think that the Shivans are like the DREJ where they seem to be hundreds they are fact one. If you've seen the Film Titan AE you'll know what i'm on about. thats why i think the Shivans can't have any civil wars it because there are one.

Bosch and Russik both wanted to use the Shivans to their own ends.

The reason why some such as I overall count Warzone as canon is due to it's not violating any of the "rules" of the FreeSpace universe, as well as it's events make a good base for parallel plotlines.

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Ace
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The Draj might be one but so are the Borg and the Zerg from Star Craft. But both of them had a rebellion. The Voyager crew with 7 of 9 help started a rebellion withen the borg. One mind does not mean no rebels just means not lickle to happen unless something goes wrong. to keep them from being one.

I like Titan AE but my dad say a few secounds of it and said it suck becuse it was a Cartoon heheheh.

you dont now until you try it you might just like it. or watch it

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To Bodly Go were no one has go before.

[This message has been edited by dredhawk (edited 05-02-2001).]

Technicaly the borg & Zerg are made up of different species so they could have a rebellion cos the drones of the Borg still have there past lifes its just been suppressed and with the Zerg if a cerebrate is killed then its brood will return to simple intsincts sort of like the borg. Now the Drej and i know this was mentioned near the end( or in one of the deleted scenes) are pure energy so there is only one Drej that is able to break its self down into the drones so how could they have a civil war?

The other thing we must remember is that both the Zerg and Borg have genetic backgrounds of the races that have been incorporated.

The only reason Unimatrix Zero existed is because the individuality still exists in all the borg drones. Seven of Nine was severed from the collective, she didn't start any sort of rebellion there.

In the case of the Shivans, the theory that I've proposed and the one that seems to be consistant with everything we've seen, indicates that the Shivans are already operating on a pure sense of instinct...collective instinct in this case. They have no former personality to revert to, no genetic background that has been supressed....if they were a natural species before, it has been totally removed from them...therefore...without individual thoughts, feelings, needs or wants, the Shivans have no reason for rebellion.

But Seven of Nine and crew of Voyager did start a Rebellion. with out Voyager there would not have been a rebellion Yes there was unmatrix 0 but thats when they were asleep lets say. but once they woke up they rember nothing of it. Captain Janeway Tovok and Torres get assmulated. Icefire did you ever see that epidsode.

heres links that will give you iformation about those 2 epidsodes

Part1 [url="http://www.startrek.com/library/episodes_voy_detail.asp?ID=111631"]http://www.startrek.com/library/episodes_voy_detail.asp?ID=111631[/url]

Part2 [url="http://www.startrek.com/library/episodes_voy_detail.asp?ID=112328"]http://www.startrek.com/library/episodes_voy_detail.asp?ID=112328[/url]


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To Bodly Go were no one has go before.

You totally missed the point of my argument. Yes I saw Unimatrix Zero, yes I've seen 100% of Voyager episodes.

My POINT was that the Shivans have NO genetic background and NO previous memories or personalities to revert back to. They don't feel repressed because as far as they are concerned, their needs are being met. Humans only rebel because they don't have their basic needs being met...or because they feel they are being repressed, taken advantage of, or otherwise living in an extremely unfair and harmful environment. These are the VERY basic roots to the French Revolution, the American Independance, and the Russian Revolution. There are many circumstances and factors, but my point is that the Shivans have absolutely none of those requirements. Therefore, the Borg and Zerg points are moot and have no merit when compaired to the Shivans based on the information we know and the information that we can make reasonable assumptions at.

Once again, Ice is letting me save my breath

The Shivans are primal to their extreme, they appear to operate as a collective when they are truly individuals working with meager communication based on instinct.

The Shivans are the smallest part of the "problem" that is sub-space...

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Ace
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quote:

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Originally posted by Ace:
The Shivans are the smallest part of the "problem" that is sub-space...

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quote:

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Originally posted by IceFire:
You totally missed the point of my argument. Yes I saw Unimatrix Zero, yes I've seen 100% of Voyager episodes.

My POINT was that the Shivans have NO genetic background and NO previous memories or personalities to revert back to. They don't feel repressed because as far as they are concerned, their needs are being met. Humans only rebel because they don't have their basic needs being met...or because they feel they are being repressed, taken advantage of, or otherwise living in an extremely unfair and harmful environment. These are the VERY basic roots to the French Revolution, the American Independance, and the Russian Revolution. There are many circumstances and factors, but my point is that the Shivans have absolutely none of those requirements. Therefore, the Borg and Zerg points are moot and have no merit when compaired to the Shivans based on the information we know and the information that we can make reasonable assumptions at.

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Thats pretty much what im saying. Because there is no necessity, there is no reason.

Everyone has to stop thinking of the Shivans as an intelligent, rational, logical, species. They are more akin to an element oe a force of nature rather than another species. This is why comparisons to the Borg and the Zerg are irrevelant.

Ok, but my question remains: How about an NTF or neo-NTF controlled Shivan faction warring against the rest? I'll state my point for this again:

1) Bosch and Russik (yes, I know he's not strictly cannon) both were hgh up in the GTVA command structure (Admirals). Therefore, they both must be reasonably sane people.

2) For both Bosch and Russik to have decided that what they were doing was for the good of humanity goes beyond just hatred of the Vasudans. And they simply weren't portrayed as Hitlers and Stalins and Husseins - they weren't particularly genocidal toward the whole of humanity; they repeatedly stated that they were doing what they were doing for the good of humanity.

3) They tried to make contact with the Shivans, obtain control of a portion of them, genetically enhance them with human characteristics, etc... why?

I think it's certainly feasible that they wanted to use the Shivans against themselves, thereby saving human lives (pilots, crew, etc). The may have been Vasudan-haters, but why? Xenophobia. They also hated the Shivans, but saw the Shivans both as a greater threat and a greater opportunity.

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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."

Actually...my plans for Russik included that he was pretty demented and that he could potentially take over the GTVA using the Shivans. That was his plan...not the original plan for the project, but thats what he tried to do. He failed...the Shivans were actually playing along with him because they thought that the beings onboard the Vidar were actual Shivans.

Bosch wanted an Alliance with them. I think what he might have done is spark interest in an upper echelon of the Shivan structure. Perhaps there is a "queen"-shivan that controls the overall goals. As for achieving that goal, I do not know if it could be done.

Bosch was a stable man who used hatred against the Vasudans as a hope to save humanity.

He believed that the end outweighed the means, he also believed that from what he saw during the reconstruction and from the great war that the Vasudans were a spiteful people who could easily become a greater threat than the Shivans. (I don't want to go in-depth about the points of view of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius as well as the Vasudan politics that led to such a belief)

Russik was mad and lustful with ambition, plain and simple. As IceFire has said many times, there were some facets of the Warzone plot that he never was able to cover as much as he wanted. (the extent of Russik's dementia, the earth type world in the new systems, etc.)

Following back on Warzone with a fan-fiction novel could be something to do in the future.

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Ace
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[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 05-12-2001).]

Snipes is beginning to understand