VWBB - Shivans

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VWBB (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/index.php)
- FreeSpace 1/2 Discussion (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=33)
-- Shivans (http://volitionwatch.papageorgefamily/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=1387)

Posted by Ace on 07-27-2001 08:28 AM:

The fact is that every single one of these campaigns I have so far seen is ignoring these facts.

Also, within the FreeSpace universe reference document, the lines concerning the Vasudan and Ancient connection can be literally interpreted in one of two ways, depending on what the Vasudan myths actually are:

1) The Vasudans were taught by the Ancients (unlikely from our knowledge of the Ancients destroying all sentient life found and subduing every planet habitable)

2) The Vasudans are the Ancients

Earth was clearly at an outer spur of their empire, and not yet colonized or seized.

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Posted by Xaphod_x on 07-27-2001 02:30 PM:

that would explain why vasudans aren't particularly well evolved for living on vasuda

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Posted by venom2506 on 07-27-2001 09:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ace
The fact is that every single one of these campaigns I have so far seen is ignoring these facts.

Also, within the FreeSpace universe reference document, the lines concerning the Vasudan and Ancient connection can be literally interpreted in one of two ways, depending on what the Vasudan myths actually are:

1) The Vasudans were taught by the Ancients (unlikely from our knowledge of the Ancients destroying all sentient life found and subduing every planet habitable)

2) The Vasudans are the Ancients

Earth was clearly at an outer spur of their empire, and not yet colonized or seized.

But can you tell me what can show any proof of any of these 2 possibilities? Where do you see any evidence of a link between the vasudan and the ancients? I'm not criticizing btw, I'de just like to know, so I can make my own opinion, since on this subject I have none yet.

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Posted by Ace on 07-27-2001 11:19 PM:

The language used by these "ancients" bears several similarities to the Vasudan language, lending credence to some of the Vasudan legends about their ancestry.

Transcripted exactly from the FS universe reference document.

The two points I stated are the only ones which can be derived from this line when compared with the other data known about the ancients as well as the Vasudans.

The descision on opinion is what the Vasudan myths actually are, whether the Vasudans were taught civilization by the ancients, or whether the Vasudans are descendants of 'fallen angels', etc.

From the other lines about the ancients, teaching the Vasudans culture is highly unlikely, and genetic manipulation also seems unlikely due to the timescale.

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Posted by hayabusa on 07-30-2001 04:16 PM:

Ancient- vasudans?

Vasudans as the descsndants of the formly great Ancients? Seems pretty, but it means we`re not the first who contacted Shivans and managed to survive....
It may explain the next invasion: Shivans have discovered they hadn`t finished their work (it took them a lot of time to get it- they are not very smart, I suppose... )and come back for it...

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Posted by IronMajor on 07-31-2001 03:26 PM:

Actually the Vasudans being ancestors of the Ancients makes sense. Remember that the Vasudans had a legend about a race of great destroyers? Suppose a small amount of people escaped to an uninhabitated world and tried to survive. After thousands of years of trying to carve out a civlization on a inhospitable world, they might loose the history of their origans and the destruction of their empire by the Shivans becomes the myth of the Great Destroyers.

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Posted by joek on 07-31-2001 05:15 PM:

About the Ancients-Vasudans connection....

Doesn't it say (in the campaign, etc) that the Knossos device is 8,000 years old? And it also says that Khonsu II is heir to a 10,000 year-old dynasty. So there's at least 2,000 years of either the Ancients being around the Vasudans; or, if the Vasudans know that this is a 10,000 year dynasty, then they must have some history of this dynasty and should therefore probably have some history of the Ancients or of any connection.

At least that's what I'm thinking/wondering.

Joe.

Posted by hayabusa on 07-31-2001 06:19 PM:

Vasudans

Yeah, good notice about the dynasty. Finally it`s pretty posible that the Vasudans are Ancients themselves, but the words about the dynasty doesn`t mean they were present in the universe et c.- altough it`s much possible.

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Posted by Londo Molari on 08-05-2001 06:37 AM:

Woah, just read all 15 pages! Everyone's out of ideas? You want ideas?

The Shivans ARE the Shadows from B5!!!!!

- The Ancients have no name for them
- They both have black organic looking ships
- They both walk on 5 or more legs
- They both are millions of years old
- Shivans masters of subspace, Shadows masters of hyperspace
- They both start with SH:
SHadows
SHivans

Hehe, ok, enough jokes. After a race reaches a certain level, millions of years old, normal citizens are not expendable. You do not PILOT fighters. You do it by remote. Here's my theory on the

HISTORY OF SHIVANS:

We know the shivans appear to be built by a 3rd party, perhaps another race. We know its not the Ancients. But what if the race that created them WAS the Shivans. The REAL Shivans. The 5-legged cybernetic beings we have encountered could be mere robots with AI constructed by Shivans to fly and maintain their ships. The real Shivans, who we have not seen, would be the ones controlling the fleets and planning the attacks. Hell, maybe their empire is so vast, or their military AI so independant, that only ONE real Shivan was co-ordinating the attack against the Alliance in the original GREAT WAR, and he was aboard the Lucifer and when he died, their attacks became somewhat less co-ordinated. Thats why they had shields on the Lucifer too, because a real Shivan was onboard.

At this technological level, they would also not construct their ships, but genetically engineer, and then GROW them. Their ships DO look party organic. If robots with AI are flying their ships it would explain how they sacrfice wave after wave sometimes to annihilate enemies ("We destroyed billions, but they kept darkening our skies"). Robots are expendable, Shivans are not. Hehe, Maybe thats why they stopped attacking after the great war, for mourning the death of a REAL Shivan.

THIER TECHNOLOGY:

Also, maybe once you get to be a million years old, your technology doesnt improve every 30 years. But then why does there technology appear to be only half a century ahead of the GTVA? Maybe because the Shivans ships we have encountered up to now were very OLD/useless ships/designs, no longer being constructed (or grown) and throwing them at the GTVA in a little war was fun or like a study of our species by some science group. When the GTVA actually fought back, they introduced a fairly newer ship, the Sathanas, into the mix to make sure the GTVA was no real threat.

Some Ideas I liked:
- Shivans are facing another enemy and the 80 or so Sathanas Juggernaughts fueled up at the Capella Star and had to be sent to back up their fleets else-where.
- Freespace 2 was not about Terrans/Vasudans for the Shivans.
- The Shivans were attracted to the Knossos device because they thought the maybe some Ancients had survived.
- The Ancients ARE technologically more advanced than the GTVA, and they could fight the Shivans 1 on 1. In the beginning they thought they had a chance. But the reason they were annihilated is that were VASTLY outnumbered. Where-as the GTVA with lesser technology never tried to beat the Shivans in direct conflict, but kept trying to find ways to seal them off.
- The Shivans are at the brink of an evolution.
- Vasudans are decendents of surviving Ancients.

Ideas I didint like:
- Shivans have a hive mind.
- Shivans are a creation of the universe or its anger.
- Shivans are like the borg.

P.S. NOT Shivan related:
Why is the Aeolus Class NOT in the Tech Room?! I really like the design... reminds me of the Hyperin from B5. I want to know more about it.. and how it compared to other ships.

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Posted by Ace on 08-05-2001 08:18 AM:

- The Ancients ARE technologically more advanced than the GTVA, and they could fight the Shivans 1 on 1. In the beginning they thought they had a chance. But the reason they were annihilated is that were VASTLY outnumbered. Where-as the GTVA with lesser technology never tried to beat the Shivans in direct conflict, but kept trying to find ways to seal them off.

From reasonable sources we know this is not true.

The ancients lacked shields and were on the same level as the GTA and VPE prior to Shivan contact save for some advanced sub-space technologies such as the Knossos which were several decades ahead of V-T technology at the time of the great war.

They fought races less advanced then themselves in their wars, and so if they were as innovative and as powerful as many wish them to be in their campaigns, they did not gain the technology due to stagnation from lack of need to innovate.

They did not adapt quickly enough to combat the Shivans.

The ancients being a powerful ally or foe is wishful thinking, none of the facts on the ancients or what Volition has mentioned from time to time on the VBB substantiates this as I often point out.

In fact, the statements made by V clearly disprove this notion.

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Posted by Cr@zYdAvE on 08-05-2001 10:08 AM:

The Ancients were definately more advanced than the GTVA, they could build the Knossos. The GTVA has more adnanced weapons cos they have had an encounter with the shevans and survived it, and they could copy the shevan weapons over the 30 or so years.
The ancients had one encounter with the shevans, they actually found out how to destroy the Lucifer but by the time they did their military was almos completely destroyed.

The ancients also learned how to track the lucifer through hyperspace the gtva couldn't do this at all untill they got the technology from the ancient homeworld.

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Posted by venom2506 on 08-05-2001 02:12 PM:

I just want people to tell me what the hell looks organic in shivan ships? Apart the fact they are pointy (like many vasudan ships, like the ares, like my fork...), what looks organic in them? Nothing. You want to see organic ships? Play Starcraft, not FS2...

Posted by Xaphod_x on 08-05-2001 02:17 PM:

quote:
The Ancients were definately more advanced than the GTVA, they could build the Knossos....
The ancients also learned how to track the lucifer through hyperspace the gtva couldn't do this at all untill they got the technology from the ancient homeworld.

All that coming under the heading of

quote:
some advanced sub-space technologies such as the Knossos which were several decades ahead of V-T technology at the time of the great war.

I do like the idea that we still don't know anything about the Shivans and they are just sitting at home throwing their advanced robots at us though. Maybe that's why ETAK sounded more like modem scream than an actual language. They maybe took Bosch because they feared (okay, too strong a word, but anyway) that we might manage to gain control of some of their vessels. In fact I prefer the idea that the "Shivans" we've met are mere constructs by the real Shivans, than that the Shivans were made by a different race.

All that aside though, I'd like to point out that I made the Shivans, and I made them blow up Capella because I'm making a giant space advert out of supernovas. In a few million years, if you look up into the sky, you'll see the words "Xaphod Rocks" spelled out in the stars.

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Posted by Xaphod_x on 08-05-2001 02:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by venom2506
I just want people to tell me what the hell looks organic in shivan ships? Apart the fact they are pointy (like many vasudan ships, like the ares, like my fork...), what looks organic in them? Nothing. You want to see organic ships? Play Starcraft, not FS2...

I think the Shivan ships are meant to look a little organic, or rather biomechanical. (this is going from the design sketches, rather than the low poly in-game representations.. I can't help but think how cool the Sathanas would have looked if they'd had more polys to work with and could get it looking like the design sketch)

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Posted by venom2506 on 08-05-2001 04:36 PM:

The design pic for the apocalypse (former name for the sathanas), does look organic, I agree. But it's the only one. I have a lot of concept pics from FS1, and I'd like to know what's organic looking in a manticore or a basilisk, or a cain. The concept pics are concepts. concept that have sometimes been thrown away. At the begining shivan ships were green, not red. Is that a proof of anything? No. At the begining, the eva were true robots, in evangelion. I can post a pic of an eva without its armor, and you'll see a robot. Can I use that to prove that the evas are robots, and not synthetized humans? No. Coz it's just a concept pic, and concepts are tests, nothing else.

Posted by Londo Molari on 08-06-2001 01:27 AM:

I DO play starcraft

and Shivan Ships DO look organic.. if you cant see that, you need BIG FAT glasses.

-the pointy legs...
-the red/black colors...
-the screeching noises they make when they zoom by you.....
-and most imporantly what Xaphod_X said... what we saw were low poly versions due to video card restrictions.

and I dont mean organic as if they were ANIMALS or CREATURES... I mean they may have a layer of non-sentient organic armour.

Posted by venom2506 on 08-06-2001 01:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Londo Molari
I DO play starcraft

and Shivan Ships DO look organic.. if you cant see that, you need BIG FAT glasses.

-the pointy legs...
-the red/black colors...
-the screeching noises they make when they zoom by you.....
-and most imporantly what Xaphod_X said... what we saw were low poly versions due to video card restrictions.

and I dont mean organic as if they were ANIMALS or CREATURES... I mean they may have a layer of non-sentient organic armour.

pointy legs? the mara gots that, ok. one ship, cool. the serapis looks like a fly then. It must be organic right?
the red black colour? mmh, yeah, sure, that makes a ship look organic...
the noses? you see noses? if I need glasses, you need to buy a new imagination dude.
low poly restriction? if you want to make a ship look organic, you do that with the maps. I llok at shivan maps, and that's METAL, yeah metal. you can see girders on the vessels. I don't see anything that looks organic. As I said, vasudan ships looks way more organic than shivan ones.

Oh, btw, you won't earn anything by being agressive like that toward me, dude. I ask a question and you come like that and insults me. Don't do that again please.

Posted by Londo Molari on 08-06-2001 03:27 AM:

"The serapis looks like a fly then. It must be organic right?"

right

And All shivan ships do look organic... you might think metal, but its not so.

As for noses... learn to READ... again, you need BIG FAT glasses... I said NOISES.. not NOSES...screeching NOISES>... are the caps helping or do you still need glasses?

Posted by venom2506 on 08-06-2001 11:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Londo Molari
learn to READ... again, you need BIG FAT glasses... I said NOISES.. not NOSES...screeching NOISES>... are the caps helping or do you still need glasses?

I could answer "f*uck you", but I prefer to stop there or all that will turn into a flame war, which is not what should happen on that thread...

Posted by joek on 08-06-2001 01:47 PM:

Re: Woah, just read all 15 pages! Everyone's out of ideas? You want ideas?

quote:
Originally posted by Londo Molari
After a race reaches a certain level, millions of years old, normal citizens are not expendable. You do not PILOT fighters. You do it by remote.

Sounds good. Look what the Air Force is trying to do now with remote piloted fighters and we're no where near millions of years old.

quote:

The 5-legged cybernetic beings we have encountered could be mere robots with AI constructed by Shivans to fly and maintain their ships. The real Shivans, who we have not seen, would be the ones controlling the fleets and planning the attacks.

That also sounds good. I mean so many sci-fi references theorize about future times where we've advanced so far as to have robots to do all our dirty work and we just sit back and enjoy life. And look at all the death and suffering in war. Any species/civilization that could build robotic fighters who could fight as well as or better than their own citizenry would surely send those robots off to fight other alien life forms.

quote:

Hell, maybe their empire is so vast, or their military AI so independant, that only ONE real Shivan was co-ordinating the attack against the Alliance in the original GREAT WAR, and he was aboard the Lucifer and when he died, their attacks became somewhat less co-ordinated. Thats why they had shields on the Lucifer too, because a real Shivan was onboard.

I like this idea as it gives a good reason for the Lucifer having shields but no other Shivan cap ships.

Joe.

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